WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en 00:00:00.880 --> 00:00:01.990 align:start position:0% so i'm going to call the meeting to order this is the minitrista city council work session for may 16th uh present this evening are myself i'm the mayor council members are pam martinson john chumperlin and mcgregor kathleen revkin in staff present um is allison falsky our end city engineer director of administration is ally paulfos public works superintendent gary peters don moscow our city clerk and jasper krueger our city administrator and brian grimm our finance director we have three items on our work session agenda compensat for discussion we have compensation study water infrastructure engineering and street project and maintenance so we're going to start with our compensation study discussion mr jasper thank you um thank you madam mayor members of council uh tonight uh we have an item that's coming to you kind of an unorthodox fashion uh that we received a couple of resignation letters from uh basically our community development department uh with the idea that uh we we have a compensation study that has been approved and we're in the middle of it and we're almost to the end of it where we're almost going to be talking to the personnel committee about the results and findings uh but tonight we're here to kind of talk about kind of those results and and and see if there's a solution that is out there to retain these two employees our community development director and our city planner so a little bit of a recap back on march that that market study was approved uh staff mostly uh ali kind of took off with that and i kind of joined the team with the compensation study i've been through three of those in my career so far one as a kind of a lower level employee one as a director level employee and then one as a city administrator and then now this one as a city administrator so i have a little bit of experience from all different levels of personnel so um as we kind of look at this you know we're kind of looking at that and in the in the perspective as the of the organization holistically so um just preliminarily from the results of looking at the market analysis and i know i'll say this probably a dozen times it's very challenging to kind of envision some of this data because you don't have it you haven't seen it you will see it uh you'll see it on i believe june 6th if everything goes well with the personnel committee meeting on the 24th but so fully acknowledging that that it's it's not quite there for review but uh we have gotten the results back and and depending on the positions minitrista uh was indicated to be between 10 and 25 below market on some of some of the wages depending on the position and in particular the highest one the 25 percent is related to the city planner position too so um and that's one of the ones that we're going to be talking about tonight a little bit in more detail so um again recapping on on the may 10th on tuesday uh the community development director and city planner uh submitted letters of resignation uh indicating that they're going to go to another city kind of an uh an interesting uh scenario where it's kind of a package deal where they're both going to go at the same time and in our department community development is literally those two people so there are there's a few support people in different aspects of it the building official and building inspector but really for development wise uh they're the two people that work on those so um talking uh with uh internal staff you know trying to figure out you know when these things happen uh one thing i do is you know what what's what's going on what's the reason uh what are what are the reasons why and really it came down to one opportunity i think there was some active recruitment from the other municipality and then there was uh you know the compensation i think kind of known compensation gap that they were willing to pay and we were kind of going to get there eventually so um having those conversations it seemed like the deficiency was was really related to compensation and what you're seeing tonight is kind of us expediting the process of the of the compensation study talking about it and and seeing if we can find a way to retain these in these two employees so a couple data points of interest when we're looking at this uh you know almost immediately ali and myself are looking at well what what are we gonna do if these two individuals leave how are we gonna fill uh that service gap that we would see with those two positions uh and likely in the short term we would have to look at consulting services or something like that and uh you know these are two full-time employee employees working eight hours a day uh if we can we can we can if we could cut down those hours uh you know that would be ideal because a consultant is is much more expensive than having your own staff so you know just a one-to-one we were looking at uh you know with a seven month replacement uh window which you might say that's a long time but that's kind of realistic uh in today's world because you might actually have to go at it a couple times we've had our police officer position posted we've reposted cso has been posted for a couple months i believe so the market is definitely a a workers market compared to an employer's market right now so um just trying to you know you'll kind of see this with me i want to be conservative with estimates but i also throughout there well let's say we you know either can fill it in three and a half months or we can somehow find some efficiencies to only have there be two people at halftime right you know we that's still a pretty significant amount of money in a seven month or three and a half month window or something like that so um you know looking at that that'd be the stop gap gap measurement stop gap measure that we would look at doing um in the short term to you know continue to provide those services to the community you know i think everybody's aware we have some legal obligations when when people submit permits and things like that otherwise they just get approved and we don't really have say and and we can't uh you know manage the city how we've determined we want to manage it so it's a very important uh position to to make sure that we're providing the service that we should be to the community um and then also one one note financial note is a severance payout and just to be clear that follows our personnel policy and that's related to pto and sick or sorry not pto vacation and sick that they have on the books that they've accrued as they're with with their time here so um vacation is paid out at 100 any sick balance is paid out at 55 so that's in the impo that's in the personnel policy and that's just uh a cost that we don't budget for annually so that's just something additional that we would have to come up with so um without having the luxury of time uh to to really move this comp study along you know that's why we're here tonight um so as you can clearly see you know we want to we want to have continue to have those levels of service the that these that the department provides to the community and these things ebb and flow right you know we woodland cove is a is a giant development that has been coming in uh with with new new uh um uh [Music] yeah yep units yup new using units new housing so you're going to start seeing an influx of building permits and things like that coming in and more questions and that's where that that support comes in so um you know fully acknowledging again that you don't see this comp study but uh one thing that we've looked at ali myself and then kelly who who uh the personnel committee will will meet um i think virtually on the 24th uh he's the individual that works for david drown associates that's really kind of driving this and and gathering all of the data um you know some of the questions that i received you know what what's the implementation cost um you know and this is to talk about if we want to expedite this i think we had uh from what i've gathered uh a 1-1 2023 projected implementation date um you know what we're proposing and talking with the personnel committee is potentially moving that up to june 1st or have it be a june 1st effective date with i think june 6 would be our first meeting in june and that would be where the full comp plan and pay plan would be evaluated um so in 2022 this is a number that's important right because the general fund would have an impact of 93 000 to implement how it is right now sight unseen from everybody right but if it would roll out just kind of almost perfectly the way that it's set up and it's set up um you know you'll get again you'll see it in a in a more simplistic manner than what we have right now but to implement it right now would be ninety three thousand dollars uh in the general fund about twenty two thousand dollars in the various enterprise funds one thing that we're going to do and through this exercise is for the 2023 budget we're gonna really take a look at each individual position and make sure that the cost centers associated with a match up with the duties that they're performing so that you know like um you know i don't even know what brian's is i'll call him out but you know making sure that you know because he's doing work for the enterprise funds general fund he's doing work for every fund and making sure that that's all split up accordingly making sure that matches up with uh with with with what's actually happening so um it's just good uh good to check on that every every year or so and and making sure that that's appropriate so um looking at that uh you know just some numbers again throwing those out because they're important is this 93 000 would have a about a one point eight two percent levy impact uh so if you think of that you know you roughly have about um fifty one thousand dollars per one percent so if your levy goes up fifty one thousand dollars it means your levy goes up one percent roughly keep in mind i didn't put it in the memo if you recall your q1 quarterly report we're about thirty thousand dollars in the black for uh general fund salaries just because of the movements with the city administrator and and and some hiring challenges and things like that so so we're already kind of in the black a little bit if that helps with the decision-making process with this um so we are showing some some surplus there through q1 at least um and then just again the enterprise funds not much there 22 000 and that's spread between the storm water water sanitary sewer and cable funds um and then also of note and you'll see it tonight during the audit presentation uh we have a a fund balance policy here of somewhere between 40 and 40 minimum 40 to 50 percent you'll see we're at about a 59 uh and you guys have done some work and i've done some deficit spending at least in 2021 and you'll see that in the audit as well to kind of get that uh fund balance down a little bit it's a very healthy fund balance um you know and it's it's a good place to be and and the arpa funds and the karzak money that definitely helped out uh to try to get to that position where we're at right now so i'd say you know my analysis is the fund balance of minitrista is pretty pretty good um so what we're looking at is a recommended course of action uh personnel and personnel committee met on friday or was it thursday thursday thursday met on thursday uh kind of went through this this whole spiel of all this data what's happening um and the recommendation from the group was to proceed we have us we have a couple of resolutions um that that could be added to the agenda tonight uh that would that would one promote uh the city planner to senior city planner with a salary adjustment and then the community development director would receive a salary adjustment from their current pay so those things are are ready to go if we choose to get the direction from the from tonight to move forward with that uh it's essential if we want to retain them that we that we do take action tonight i don't like to put pressure i don't like pressure on myself or pressure on city council to make decisions because sometimes we need to take our time but uh quite literally if if we don't that they're just gonna they they have offers on the table uh to move on they would they would move on so i just wanna make sure that that's clear um so what those resolutions would read in detail is uh we would promote the city planner to a city uh senior city planner with an annual salary of 91 182.62 cents effective june 1 2022. um that number you know it's kind of it's not a it's it's it's not a round number and that's because it fits in with the pay plan that you guys again haven't seen yet um and then the second resolution would be to adjust the salary of the community development director to 126 607 34 effective june 1. again not a round number fits in with the pay plan and i want to just make sure there's an emphasis that these numbers with the the senior city planner and the community development director they fit within the grades of the proposed pay plan that you'll see um and i think they fall into a grade 7 out of 10 for at least the city the community development director i know ali has this probably pulled up already and then the the the city planner one would fall into a grade three you're talking steps steps sorry so grade 10 for community development director in grade 8 for senior planner yep and then step seven for community development step three for plan senior planner so uh what that means is there's basically if we adopt the plan there'd be three years of growth for the the community development director and up to seven uh for the senior planner um and then what the what the other direction would be from from this group that's recommended is to expedite the review of the updated market study and pay plan to occur at that june 6 2022 work session and then at that regular meeting uh if if it's recommended for approval we could we could evaluate that approval that night and then implement on june first first uh 2022 one of the things that the personnel committee some staff brought up was this equity amongst staff right because that's a big deal um and having an implementation date of the same date for both of these even though they're kind of that they'd be happening at separate times um is important right for internal equity within the organization so i'm sure there's a lot of questions uh but what we're looking for is just consideration direction to add an item to the agenda tonight uh if if this group so so chooses and those are queued up and and what they would do is they would retain both the city planner as a city or senior city planner and then a salary adjustment for the community development director and ali is kind of the the whiz behind all of the data so she's got all of that up there if there's any specific questions or things of that nature you know it is a work in progress and it's almost daily we're working with uh with kelly from from david drown and i will say that it's um i've been impressed with with them and their responsiveness and just the ability to work through some of these you know kind of call it a fire drill last week uh to really help us kind of understand what we what we can do and what's what's appropriate so with that i'll entertain any questions i know brian we brought brian in um he's part of the personnel committee and allie's obviously uh you know leading the project so i'll entertain any questions and then we can have a free-flowing discussion all right thank you obviously there's going to be questions i also had an opportunity to talk with david um and uh he said it really was um he was recruited he wasn't looking and he said he was asked multiple times by this by um this other city to join their their staff and he said it really was it just came down to to money the the offer that they were making him was substantial so um and same same with nick both of them said they loved working here they like the atmosphere they like staff they liked council it really just kind of came down to money the other thing when we looked at a compensation study this was a number of years ago um this was through um gamache david gamache was it george thank you and he said usually employees and you might know this because you were in the corporate world usually employees won't move for a small amount i thought he said it was somewhere less than 10 000 or something like that or 10 but they will move for a bigger amount and so i think what this study and and we can get some data here too tonight what other cities are paying their um community development directors um i think it shows that we're underpaying them right now just because of the market the way the market is today so can we go okay um jessica and i were on the phone for a long time this morning and um probably the most poignant point that he made to me was that this um same position and laser has not been filled for 11 months wow which does is a big deal um we talked and i asked all my questions and some of them i'll put on the record tonight for anybody listening and then um i pretty much got there but here's my question that was just brought up by what you were saying what's to say that the city that has offered them the jobs won't come back you can counter that's greater than this they might they might we don't know and then what are we going to do but so my understanding from what david told me he says they made an offer he said no they made another offer he said no and that was the third time that they came back so again i don't know um the city can you say what city it is it's public knowledge right yes so the city is rogers uh they are growing of they're they're growing i mean like leaps and bounds and i know that they do not have currently a um community development director and they might be short staffed in their planning department that i don't know but i think what they did is they just said we have to offer them the best we can do i think they're in the same situation that lasers and they haven't been able to find or they're they're panicking not panicking but concerned that they won't be able to find somebody so i think that's why they made the offer to both because they need both is my now whether they come back and make a bigger offer i don't know but i don't think my opinion is we can't go higher than this that's what i want to hear that i want and because it starts to skew right across the whole sure absolutely i don't have any issue with the step making more money i just don't want to get any out of hand for the budget so um yeah i i think if this if they accept this and the other community comes back and says more and they want to go there this this situation for them is far better than rogers distance wise to work number one they know the community they know staff they know the council they like it here so i my guess would be it might take quite a bit more for rogers maybe another 10 grand i don't know but if if they do when they leave that's it i mean we can't keep going back to the table from my perspective i think they just want to be feel like they're in the ballpark compensated reason and they do really want to stay here genuinely i picked up on from time to time right and they they definitely do i spoke with david and he said they talked themselves into it pretty hard leaving he said when we heard there was an option to stay that wasn't it was easy to talk themselves into staying yeah just to give you a perspective from me it's very helpful input thank you [Music] yeah it's it's a big it's a big jump for both of them now the other thing is before jasper came on board i don't know exactly when and maybe so mike roney was talking about we need to think about and i don't know if he mentioned it to the council but he said we do need to think about uh promoting um nick to senior planner because if we don't he's gonna leave so we've kind of known that and and this study was hopefully going to then solidify what we were going to do it's just their departure or their potential departure has come a little bit premature [Music] in the scenario if rogers came back and raised the ante and they go and we get the official david drown document and we deem that we do need to increase so we would be back to analyzing each position and making it effective january one correct i think if we no longer are under the gun i guess is the way i look at it and i recognize if we did two of them on june 1 yes right right you need to keep them in step but if we don't have to do it june 1 would we go back to january 1. i would recommend no because i know other employees key employees are looking and i think certain key employees that are very very valuable and needed so again when we're looking at at these bigger gaps i think we need to act sooner than later because we don't want those key positions to be vacant for any length of time and they could potentially take a long time not even not even independent of if anyone is looking i'm not looking at myself but it's public record it's out there it's like now you're gonna we're gonna do it for these two but now it's not good enough for the rest of everyone else for june 1. i think there's a perception potential problem for that i i agree i think um i think we take the hit either way any other question i would have and it it doesn't sit comfortably with me but it's not our problem is his ethics his what what did they agree with with rogers and does rogers know that right up until the last day they can back out i haven't i worked for cardio for umpteen years so i never went somewhere else to sign a letter of intent or whatever the term would be is there no legal binding from on their part they can just whatever yeah they can they're they're at will employees so they can leave and i think uh their rogers is fully aware that this could have happened right so they kind of understand what they what they what what they're attempting to do um they i think they can anticipate what our reaction would be could be so it's not out of the realm that they're anticipating this right now happening so uh you know it is it's it's unorthodox right it doesn't happen like this very frequently um really at all i've never heard of it yeah i haven't either uh you know and it but it was it's it's i've never had a basically a whole department try to leave right so that's also unorthodox all at once so it's kind of an interesting thing to evaluate but um you know i think rogers i think is fully anticipating we're going to have this conversation you know there's some what's happening is the baby boomers are retiring i mean that's a big part of it um they're retiring and we don't have enough backfill coming in and we don't have enough people wanting to go into municipal or government positions so um it's it's a big problem but it's also a problem in the i call it the real world the other other part you know private business it's it's a real problem well the market crash continues we won't have to worry about it baby boomers will be back to work [Laughter] cargill's hiring john yeah okay are we going to need a city planner then no um no we would not so this would this would fill in that position we wouldn't need to backfill that city planner it would be a replacement we might look at in 2023 potentially some internship placement things like that kind of bounce some ideas as far as the planning department goes to you know maybe get some people acquainted with minitrista if there if there ever is a need right because we're going to be growing as a as a community one of the things and i haven't pitched this yet to the group is uh kind of a staffing plan right as we grow what can you expect that we're going to need for staffing and you know that that department is one of the most important departments that we have it's going to grow so making sure that you know we we have partnerships with the university of minnesota where we can get some uh you know people straight out of college straight out of grad school that can maybe come to minitrista and kind of be acquainted with us already through an internship program they're fairly inexpensive but it really helps us you know helps the community the community development community get to know us a little bit so i would say not for a little while but that'll be a conversation i'd like to have with the group as far as just how you know let's have some thoughtful growth growth as far as staff goes because we're going to see the population increase and the the service levels are going to need to be maintained uh you know what does that mean you know as far as staff goes can i have one more thing absolutely absolutely i'd like to hear their questions first because i was part of the personal committee one thing that hit home with me as well is if they did decide to leave um we would probably have to post the position at higher level anyway because jasmine said that it was that community was smaller than us that was very quebecer that was right now what we're proposing so even you know if we don't maintain these guys who we know their work ethics we know that they're great employees um we would be hiring somebody new at the same rate that we would be losing them at yeah and the timing on this uh we all know it i'm just verbalizing um the timing and not not having seen the study not having any idea what the actual ranges are from the study or anything else it's um not the best but this is what we're faced with and um i would agree um they are excellent employees and so we would like to keep them ellie do you know um do we know what similar communities like victoria maybe mound some of those that are also growing community or not mound isn't but yeah i can kind of go through so for david's position mound pays 124. orono is 113. victoria's 118. sure what is 124 or coney is 132. and why is that as 121. keep in mind david's been here for eight eight years i thought it was longer longer than that position oh okay yep and then for nick's new position we didn't have quite as good of comps but carver county pays 88 andover pays 94. chan pays 93 elk river 92 excelsior 90 minnetonka 100 savage 96 st louis park 94. a lot of some communities don't have a senior planner it's a city planner so and he was even 30 below those city planners so okay just as an idea so the average for nick's position in other communities is 94. the average for david and other communities is 118. that's helpful that's very good that's good information yeah yeah and this is what you'll see a lot of it okay at the next meeting all right very good and they to reiterate jasper's point they both fall in the play pay plan that we had come up with prior to even getting these resignation notices we didn't adjust the plan to fit these salaries if that makes sense they fit in to where the data was telling us they should be paid which is also helpful to know for you guys also based on um years of in their position and so on yeah that's taken steps yep that's taken into consideration a question that i did get um was at some point when we actually get this study are we going to see like uh somewhat of a hierarchy of people for each of these cities and what and what they make yes yeah we should see comparisons yes yeah and you'll see kind of on a granular level and then it'll be put together on a nice spreadsheet where you can see where each position is below market above market app market and how that kind of okay yep now it's going to save us from getting a sneak peek at it a lot of the numbers were similar when you look at waconia shorewood and stuff you know a couple of them were higher than what we placed top level or lower similar so also this will as you can probably surmise that this will adjust other positions as well right so just be prepared okay and i don't know how much okay but the 93 000 that you're quoting is for all the positions or just these two all of them approximately non-union positions yes correct yeah yeah non-union so not police officers public workers yeah yeah yeah okay and that's for them for the last seven months of this year okay so yes obviously so what are you telling us that that is fluid it is somewhat because what there's going to be ranges and i mean that is if we implement what we have today in the personnel committee kind of accepts what we where we place people um the comparisons i mean that could vary i don't think it would affect that 93 much if at all that kind of in mind in jasper's mind kind of the top that would be the implementation okay so it could be a little less but it's probably going to fall it should be right around there would you look at it as the personal committee would you look at each position individually yeah because it would also have to be commensurate on on their number of years of service too and in that position yeah yeah what we would do we'll look at each individual employee we'll look at the the grade that they're supposed to be in and then where they're placed there'll be a justification of you know they had this many years of service prior to being here they've had this many years of service here so you'll see some some um you know objective data to why they're you know a step seven versus a step three in that grade and uh you know that'll each employ each of the 15 employees will have that kind of summary and i yeah i guess to go off that there are some positions that are at market so they won't get as much of an adjustment as others so that's also taken into account too it's not like we're doing a flat you know 10 across the board or anything like that and the other thing too i should point out i don't remember when it was um we did a market adjustment was it like maybe six years five six years ago fifteen sixteen i wanna say yeah around there so there were number we knew um so chief was one for instance um we knew that he was way under market so we did do some adjustments like i thought it was um ryan chief maybe even david there were a few adjustments and we said you know we need to keep a pace with this but in the last couple years it just has outpaced everything the adjustments i think if i remember correctly we're more at least getting to the lower half of the ring it wasn't well to get into that range right range but it wasn't to go to the top of the range no no or even mid to top or whatever and even if you look at paul's i think currently is still probably on the lower end just as a very much so um it's it's the market that's driving this and it's the workforce that's driving it yeah and i will note you will see this this this will be fluid as more people retire what city what you found out right you're you're going to pay somebody probably more than that person that retired to fill that same position right so you'll see this kind of turnover domino effect and this is going to be this is just problematic for municipalities to kind of keep up because you're going to see so much of this turnover and it'll be challenging we'll just have to keep our finger on the pulse of it and just keep talking about it right because the worst thing you can do is like not talk about it for seven years and then all of a sudden where we're at right now so um you know you'll hear me talk about it you'll be very informed about the market and what's going on and you know you'll have to make those policy decisions on where we want to be in that market so should we be looking at this i mean we have been looking at it annually in terms of increases but is it like every year you you can't do a study every single year no so our step program that we're proposing has 10 steps so every year they would get a cola plus a step until they top out of that position i mean not to dive into the pay plan too much but okay that's what we're proposing is the cola for the cost of living and then kind of a market adjustment every year steady we can plan for it but that's kind of what we're proposing with this pay plan instead of well let's just go with the cola again this year um just so we can keep up with the pace yeah yeah and yeah not to get into too many details i mean you'll you'll really have you'll have control of the pay plan obviously right and the distance between the steps but you'll really have control of the the cola and you can look at what the market's doing and say oh you know the cpi for 2024 is one we'll be optimistic 1.5 percent right and then you say oh we're going to adjust it just cola for the cpi and we're at 1.5 and then everybody gets their step and you know it you stay within the market pretty dang close okay um but really i mean full control of the city council has full control of the cola and really the pay plan too i mean you can adjust that as you as you feel you want to but um you know really it's the cola and you know we're gonna see probably eight percent cpi this year again we're not going to see an eight percent cost of living adjustment uh you know so you know those things have been flowing they kind of you know balance out at two and a half percent three percent and just kind of you live with the the outliers a little bit so um but yeah you'll have more control it'll keep us in market for longer uh they do have i know david drowne has services that they can do a comp check-in for you know i don't know 1500 or something like that a year and they'll just kind of tell you they'll use the same spreadsheet that we have right now they'll say those populated with new data say oh yeah you guys are within this range of the market and you should maybe do a you know you're good or you should do another they'll give us a recommendation so but generally these things should last at least three years you know before you really have to make any adjustments and it might just be a positional adjustment because all of a sudden there's no you know finance directors you know just can't find them um or something like that right so okay other questions concerns okay so we'll add this to the agenda at our regular meeting then um will it be under business or will it be consent it'll have to be business business okay under business all right all right so we'll move on to our water infrastructure engineering all right i will take that over madam mayor members of council uh so tonight we're really um kind of reaffirming some direction i think i've received just through general comments from city council members that we want to kind of look at doing a request for proposals for engineering services related to the infrastructure projects we have on the horizon here uh the the two wells in the treatment plant um just a point of clarification i know it's you guys have we've done a lot of test wells so i think we're on test well i'm looking at gary uh tesla's 10 and 11 is that correct right now or work and then our production wells are going to be eight and nine sure so just you know there's a lot of those numbers floating around and um but yeah they're there's we've done a lot of tests well so um looking at those two projects i've kind of outlined i know you guys have been through this process before and it would likely mirror it you know kind of with with uh the the treatment plants that were built in the water tower with that sch was awarded but really the two options that i'm outlining are just to do a request for proposals for the specific well and treatment plan options or projects and then the second one is to do a request for proposals for those projects but then just general water infrastructure engineering uh really having a point uh engine engineering group that knows our water infrastructure system that the our water model lives with and that really is is helping us guide our decision making over at least the next you know short term five years um you kind of see how it goes and then if you like them you like them if not you know it's a contract you can get out of it at any time if you want to but really kind of a long-term commitment from an engineering firm and a long-term commitment from the city to really help make uh you know innovative decision-making uh for future projects as we grow as a community and really get to understand what what our needs are and how we're going to address those with water conservation and you know it's been raining quite a bit so now it's we're not really thinking about droughts but you know those things happen and how we you know have those conscious decisions about or you know the discussions about how we make those decisions and you know be forthright about hey you know we're not going to plan for a drought but if we would this is what it would cost so you know those kind of conversations that we've been having over the last year you know over the last year so um so option one would really be just the project specific one option two would be the project specifics with um you know some some additional just water engineering uh infrastructure consultant services for for a five-year period so the timeline for this really we're looking at it tonight at the work session trying to get some direction if the direction is to go either with either one of these options then maybe there's another option out there that we're not thinking about but would be to come to city council for a review of the rfp language and then establish an ad hoc review committee so a committee of uh maybe a couple council members that would do the initial vetting of the proposals and then that group would then make a recommendation for you know maybe two or three engineering firms to come and present at a city council meeting where then a decision would be made on the on the process so looking at june 6th for for that action and then that july 5th through the 13th that group would then evaluate the the rfps july 19th uh that short list would be brought to a city council meeting and then potentially august 1st that first meeting in august there would be an engineering services agreement and then they could get started the the one piece i want to make sure is clear is that the the wells in in the woodland cove area it's challenging to get in there right now so i think it's safe to say that they're probably gonna not maybe be done by june first i think that was the deadline where um you're correct i think the the amount of rain we've had i don't see them being able to get that get in there so one of the concerns i have is you know timing wise we want to make sure that we stay on this and we're we're moving along you know this rfp process potentially could go until august 1st right that well potentially could be done maybe around july 1st if it's delayed a month so we're really talking about a one month window where we're kind of in limbo waiting to figure out what's going to happen maybe that's enough time and it matches up well with with the project if it's delayed so i just want to be clear on that that the process does have a little wiggle room if we want to expedite it you know have a shorter maybe a two-week window where we're collecting uh proposals that might limit the number of people that we would get that one month is is generally accepted and it's enough time for us to solicit to the potential vendors uh and and get those and gather those proposals so there is a little wiggle room but i want to make sure it's clear that we're looking at an august first date and there's probably another month where they need to kind of get an understanding of what's going on you know if it's if it's an outside firm so want to make sure the timeline is clear and that there aren't any surprises there one of the things we need to know though is okay you're saying so for instance if we were to uh select a candidate and approve something on august 1st that doesn't mean that all the specs are going to be in place for the new wells so now you're looking at drilling the new wells in that's not going to happen until probably september or october so we're i mean i guess i'm kind of concerned about that time frame yep that that is that's true it'd probably take a couple months 60 days to develop those plans and specs especially if it's a new engineering firm that's coming in you can drill wells in the in the winter so they could work throughout the winter and realistically aren't we looking at having these wells online probably for 2023 unless i'm missing something so i don't think this this timeline throws anything off that bad we're not gonna have i mean even if they're in october we're pretty much past the well the only thing no no no the the timing is because we have to know that those wells are going in a specific place and then once we know that place so we're hoping this test will then we can start planning for the treatment plant and if we're moving the wells out two to three to four months now we're also moving those plans and everything of the treatment plan because it's not necessarily the wells it's a treatment plant that has to come online be in order to service the community it's the treatment plant that i'm concerned about but the wells have to come first so we know where the treatment plant goes no you're not and you know um worst case is they have to find an alternative location um then woodland cove right and then we're doing more test wells well hopefully we're not yeah um but what i'm asking is it does it does it does push it into the winter um but you can start designing the treatment plant in the winter that that's the longest time period as far as design goes that'll be i don't know six months you could actually start designing some of it now already i mean what you're waiting for the what your test results are going to be from your for your test while doing your um all the testing of the water there is going to give you what the filter requirements are going to be but i mean as far as the building and that stuff goes i mean they could start looking at the design of it already i mean to start planning the actual building itself so that's going to be in there because we know what you know right you know what we're going to go for gallons we always want expandables i mean there is stuff that you could already do and start prepping you know as well as are being developed so well i have a question yeah why would we do any of this before we know whether or not the test goals even work i mean let's let's say these ones don't work we've done all this gone out for rfps and everything and we're back at square one like well i understand designing the treatment plant now because you're right we don't that we just have to specify all the stuff but everything else it's kind of putting the cart in front of the horse isn't it we don't know if the test wells work and let's say it continues to rain and they can't get out there until july i mean who knows what this weather is going to do with this so i guess i'm just confused why we'd start doing all this before we even have test faults yeah i'll circle back um i think we're kind of i don't know if i'm reading the room correctly but option two is kind of more general water infrastructure engineering if we just be looking at option one you're exactly right um if we're looking at water infrastructure engineering as a whole for the for the city then i think we can do that at any time right because we're going to rely on them to provide information and guidance on the wells and everything so they might they might look at this and they might say well maybe you should try this and they might have some different ideas even than what we what we have right now um so if you're looking at option one yeah maybe we should wait until we find water uh you can still go through the exercise and talk about it and try to select somebody that you feel comfortable with because uh from my experience you're gonna get a lot of firms that are at the same price points like you're not going to get a deal somewhere it's going to be you know 15 to 20 percent engineering costs on these big projects and um you know so that'll be the same it's really about who's a good fit for what we need to do and if that weld project gets pushed out a little bit you'll still have there's no harm in going through the process right because you're not going to start uh you know paying them to engineer this thing that they're not even doing yet because they can't do it but you've you've selected who's going to do it so they can when when that time comes um if we're going down option two to the more uh general water infrastructure engineering i think you can do that at any time as well too just to kind of secure that that group so um well i think maybe though it might be good to start an rfp process if we want to if we want to go out for rfps it might be okay to go out now even though we don't know for sure that the wells are going to be at least we'd have we'd know which firm we're going with for for the engineering otherwise if we wait until the test wells that's to your point we don't even know if it's going to be july 1st maybe it's august 1st if we wait till august 1st now then we and then we go out for rfps as you can see by this timeline now we're looking at probably october or november before we get an engineering firm online to start designing the plant how's you i mean i personally like the idea and obviously it's council some uh to discuss but the option too to have someone in place for uh yeah because you know like some of us have been through that we went through wsb bolton make and sch all on same projects and that was pretty tough transition it'd be nice just to i'll leave it at that but um it'd be nice to just um have someone for the next three four five years or whatever to say you're going to be doing you're a water infrastructure and there is even other firms i mean sch and wsb do fine but there's firms i think me and jasper have talked that maybe specialize a little more in water maybe they're not as much municipal engineers but they're more specialized in water type projects and whether they throw the hat in the ring or not i guess that's up to them i guess yeah and i'd actually like to see that i'd like to know what's available what kind of knowledge is available and see if we get the best we can get and i take it that option one is is staying with wsv and option two is just seeing if there is more knowledge out there is that what we're saying i i'd say no i i think that the two options would have very similar paths it'd just be different scopes you'd have a you'd have a um more of a general engineering kind of uh concept with the second one where uh the first one would just be strictly project bases which i think you're used to with the seh um rfp that you went through and yeah 20 seh one was just the water treatment plants the water main and the water tower and then it ends where this would be for a period of time so maybe there's even something else in years four and five that come up that they start working on for us not just two or three designated projects what would be the advantage of that versus just doing project specific there'd be clear boundaries clear defined boundaries about who's working on what um you know right now there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen we've got wsb we got svh providing some water guidance so there's a little bit of that going on there's history with that so i understand that but you just have clear defined boundaries of who's working on what you know okay wsb's our city engineer uh they're working on the you know street projects uh you know that that scope and then you know not saying that ws wsb will likely submit a proposal for the you know it could be could be the wsb for both of them but you'd have clear boundaries as far as who's working on what if there were two different firms so that that would be beneficial from a staff standpoint because there'd be a point person um you know that that's really working on that and then there's clear boundaries so that would be helpful okay so kathleen options to use fine i mean are you okay going forward now i mean yes yeah okay john option two okay i'm fine with that one question i have is um mike right now is our water specialist right gary mike at the water treatment plant he's your operator yeah and um i know it's an ongoing you know training for him with that company work with mike very closely to keep training him and i know mike is probably going to be retiring well don't say don't say that and um so you know we want to start grooming someone to replace mike because that day will come and we unfortunately i think we already have somebody that's no we don't all right you're right gary and i have talked about succession planning for that position too and trying to figure out i don't know what the consensus is if it's two or three years or something like that could be sooner it could be tomorrow right no you never know but um but we've started talking about that and i know gary's got some organizational ideas right for for the public works department as it grows or needs to grow about having a position you know that that could be groomed in and you'll have to make a decision as far as the council goes you know that you're going to pay somebody to overlap so you get that training which is i think important right but as gary alluded to there might not be that person on staff right now so that might be something we look at for the 2023 budget to get some overlap and get somebody that can kind of capture mike's institutional knowledge and you know that's that's the biggest challenge right a lot of the stuff is in in your head and you don't have it written down and i know that you've been working with mike to get some of that stuff documented sops and things of that nature so we're working on it but um you know i think the 2023 budget process we're gonna have to have a conversation about succession planning and just the kind of growth and expansion of the water department or utility department and the the public works option two would really help because i think this last summer we ran into you talked to wsb do you talk to sch and maybe i'm thinking of my perspective at least but this would alleviate that hopefully it should yep yep no it wouldn't in that in that case definitely you'd have a point person to ask questions how do we make this plant more efficient or is it operating at its peak efficiency you know things like that and we could hold them to the fire and make them figure it out so um okay so we're on board with option two um and then an ad hoc committee um do you want that tonight i mean do you want people to kind of volunteer raise your hand maybe yeah yeah okay we have one volunteer do we have another yes okay is that okay i'll do it all right so we have n and is that okay yes okay so we have ann and kathleen all right okay and then um what do you will you bring this back when will you bring this back at a regular meeting yeah on the sixth of june okay yep i'll uh we'll have a formal rfp that you can evaluate basically we just need your approval to go out and solicit it and it's a one month solicitation period um you know we'll start gathering some i know gary's got contacts in other municipalities and what they use just to kind of get get it out to maybe some vendors that we don't know the only question i would have is would the ad hoc committee prior to it coming back on june 6 would they review the rfp um language or is that just we could do that if they're if you just send it out to them and then if they have questions i'm pretty sure whatever questions you have we might have too so you might as well ask them ahead of time okay all right on that gary so you've got plans for what p for public works needs are you gonna give that to brian and then we can have a discussion about what roles need to be filled yeah we're been working on that's my next step is to kind of come forth with that so and that won't be part of this you know thing but yeah um [Music] with that can i just ask where we at with the public works um position interviews next week okay how many people three i don't see their own pretty promising we have a good feeling about it okay and would any of them have any background in water yeah yeah okay so that's good all right all right um anything else then on that subject questions comments all right then we'll move on to our street capital improvement and maintenance planning discussion all right madam mayor members of city council uh this is kind of a affirmation of kind of some side conversations that we had some main conversations at meetings about just kind of uh taking a look at the way we address street maintenance and street projects in minnetrista and how we really convey that information to the public and use it as a tool to help educate people really it's kind of what i came up with um and it's not just me it's working with allison and gary on this quite a bit and really what i what i did i kind of took a holistic look at what we have done here and we have a lot of the tools and we have a lot of the data you know we have the pci and we have a very robust and detailed spreadsheet at the moment of what's what the needs are in the community for basically every street but really what i found one of the i don't know i call it deficiencies or one of the challenges was like understanding what that is right because personally i'm a visual person and i'm looking i need to look at a map i want to look at a map and i want to see what's all going on and i think that's for me and i think a lot of people it's the easiest way to convey what that message is and and what the plan is and um you know so that's one of the pieces that you'll see in this this proposal is really you know i think we have the data i think we've done a really nice job of gathering that data and collecting the right data it's just really how do we package it and communicate that with the public and that's really what this is so looking at this and this will aid in all the conversations we have about budget planning and what streets we're going to do and um you know do we have corings done do we have all the prep work done for these streets and and really we'll be able to look at it holistically because one of the one of the metrics that i don't know if we've looked at in detail here that i know gary really prioritizes is the year that streets are built right because there's a pretty established regression line of you know you build a street you should do this on this period of time then you should do there for maintenance and then eventually you're gonna have a project in 12 to 15 years and you know really where we at where do we have projects that we need to get done and really just look at it at that and then kind of use the the the um pci as a secondary confirmation or maybe a flag it or ask a question um because really a lot of them fall into line with the regression of the age and one of the things that that that i've noticed and gary and elson have brought it up to my attention is you know we have a lot of roads that are in that window of potentially needing a mill and overlay that aren't even on the 10-year plan right now just mostly i think from what i've gathered just they're cost prohibitive right it's it's just so expensive to do this so we're prioritizing the really really bad roads maybe we're you know this this whole system will help us help me help us help everybody understand really where we're at like snapshot of the city uh because you know one of the things that is uh in in the back of our mind is while we're prioritizing the really really bad roads we're getting those done but maybe we're missing a window for some of these roads that that that could be saved and and you know follow that normal regression and and uh you know repair schedule and we can get the most out of them but we might miss that window because we just don't know we're not thinking about or talking about it uh that's kind of why we thought next year we would do a lot of mill and overviews so that we can get to those streets that are still savable yep no no for sure and i think yeah next year and i dug into it and looking at the kind of we don't adopt a plan but really we have kind of a plan right we kind of know what what area we're going to do next here's the turtle creek uh neighborhood and gary and i went out and we drove around today and looked at it and he kind of showed me what was going on out there and i mean it needs it it needs it i mean it's if we let it go much much longer it's going to go to the point where it's going to be up yeah a reclamation so it'll help me understand i think it'll help everybody understand if we kind of go through this exercise of kind of consolidating the data having one one area where we where we store it and then you could have the option of looking at it on a map with different various layers or if you really wanted to look and dig into a spreadsheet look at a big spreadsheet and and pick pick it apart if you want you kind of look at it so really what this what this is what's being proposed tonight is basically establishing an online mapping system that easily conveys those road conditions so the metrics that i've identified road conditions so that's pci and that's also field field verified by our public works engineering staff you know pci can tell you maybe it's at an 85 but you know you see some raveling or something like that and it's it's it's an 85 on the pci but really you got to address something quicker so i put a lot of uh emphasis on that field verification piece so current road conditions the road condition history so if you have a pci you know i envision a graph that can kind of show you oh pci is going down oh you did a seal coat or a crack seal or you did some did a project pops back up and then it starts regressing regressing again you know if we if we capture that pci data every three years you should have a nice kind of picture of what's going on on a single stretch of road anywhere in the city year built last maintenance task or project with the year completed the next maintenance task or project with the proposed year comprehensive three-year project display so you can see what's the next three years look like you know 2023 you know this is pretty solid this is what we're going to do 2024 you know 95 sure we're going to do this you know 2025 you know probably you know 85 sure we're gonna do this and then you know looking at the data you know you kind of just keep replacing that third year project with what the next year priority is um and then a comprehensive three-year maintenance display because that's a big piece too there's a lot of gravel roads in this community the gravel roads they need attention too they actually cost quite a bit of money to maintain and we put a lot of gravel into it a lot of grading a lot of ditch work so you know looking at those those are kind of forgotten at times right yeah you know and they're but they're very important we have a lot of i don't even know if uh here you know how many miles of gravel road we have 20 miles 20 miles yeah i mean that's that's a significant amount of of uh mileage that we have to maintain and then the the estimated project cost or project or maintenance cost so if we have a million overlay in 2024 what's that estimated project cost that can help people kind of understand maybe what their assessments could be um you know because that's the next question when is my road going to get done and then what is what's my assessment going to be are you going to assess so you know having that information would be very helpful for you know a front desk staff like darcy that can answer the phone and somebody's got a question she could pull up a map and say oh where do you live put in an address well we don't have anything planned for the next three years but if you're interested now you know the last time you had a project done was 2012 and it was a million overlay you know stuff like that i think that would be useful um and then really using that tool in that spreadsheet database gis as a tool to set the budget and just review it annually for financial accuracy right now we're in kind of a volatile period of time where supply chains are in question uh you know material prices are going up faster than they have traditionally so you know understanding what those costs are so we don't kind of overshoot what our financial capabilities are and understanding that and and making sure that we're kind of that per unit price or per square foot price or whatever the unit is for that type of project you know we're able to update that annually and kind of feel good about it about where we're at so you know really to me um you know it's not as as bad of a situation as it could be i think you guys have done a lot of good work to capture a lot of data it's just really conveying that data to staff to the public to the city council in a manner that you can understand because it's super complex right there's a lot of things going on a lot of considerations so um in order to update this then every year every year we would be doing some corings so right now we have corings we think for three years right i mean yes we were looking at three years worth of chlorine data and we could certainly look at economies there's not a lot of upfront costs to get the cor coring crew out here um so you could certainly look at annual coin or look at it every two years okay because then we'd want to update because this is a five-year plan right now so we want to continue so that we know what we're going to be doing correct yeah we don't have any accordions from hunter's cross area right so we'd have to do those next year probably so we know um and then the other thing is also since again on this list north arm morning view and all these other mill and overlays so am i understanding you correctly then you're probably we're gonna have to bond for this because obviously we don't have that kind of money so we're looking at a um one through a four five nearly a six no just under six million dollar bond or roughly we want to do that sooner rather than later bond prices are going on you would um there's some are there there's some regulations that don't let you borrow money and just sit on it and hold it for extended periods they generally like to see you brian probably knows more but within 18 months spend the money on the project you know so that you're expending those um well that's not an issue i mean we can move up the roads i mean we don't have to wait and do hunters crest in 2027 and 26 i mean if we bond for it now we can go out to bid next year for more than one road project we we can and and that's a great point i mean interest rates are likely going to continue to go up you know we're probably and i don't know brian if you have your finger on the pulse of this but we're probably at a three seven five to four if we would sell a bond right now somewhere right in that range um you know two years ago it was maybe two two percent so the the cost of money is going up um we can have a conversation about this you know next year mill and overlay for the turtle creek area million dollar project basically but i think we need to have the conversation now about bonding now for and and doing projects maybe even moving them up into 23. i mean but if we can if we're going to bond like you said if we're going to bond and it's going and we're bonding 6 million a 1 even a one percent difference could make a pretty fairly hefty difference couldn't it oh yeah i mean so you know maybe we need to move north our morning view sunnybrook maybe those need to be 23 and we bond for the whole thing yeah i mean i it's roughly eight million to cover north our morning view and all the hunters crust yeah no if we're gonna do it then do it and do it sooner rather than later because i can't imagine it's going to get cheaper it's a drill bit yeah i think what's the drawback [Music] i was going to say i think the rationale would be to try to not have to bond for as much i mean 25 26 and 27 could be covered with almost just the the monthly levy for bonds right now so those could almost be pulled aside you know when done over those three years phased in different parts of hunter's press so to me maybe the question would be whether you'd want to move up any of the 2024 to 2023 you know the bond yeah right but then again i there's so much volatility right now with the interest rates in the bond market i couldn't tell you right now if the rates are gonna you know somehow moderate in 24 and be just as good you know right now there but then you could you can also so what can happen is if we could bond now for 23 projects and include all the 24 projects in them and if bond rates should go down i know you can re-finance in a couple of years uh most of ours are set up with like an eight-year call or something like that but we can ask ellers how that is change if you if you get the the call protection of the way of that then you're that's reflected in your race yeah okay i mean we can look at all that though just uh if i may add this globally right i'm the reason why i'm kind of smiling is because as these projects get bigger and bigger right our annual bond payment gets bigger and bigger and it has a levy impact you know just as a as a reference uh eight million dollar bond if we have a 20-year term uh we would likely have a a eight and a half to nine percent levy increase related to that that single project right and we don't have unless we use some of our so if we're bonding or if we're levying let's just say a million a a year for road construction and then we take let's say i don't know how much it would be how much a payment would be would it be around three hundred thousand for a six million dollar bond i mean that's a little like light because three fifty yeah three okay so maybe then you you levy 1.1 versus a million and you use three five to pay your bond that leaves you with seven five or you know something like that rather than rather than um levying a million plus the 350 you can kind of work that out and kind of gradually work it in too so you wouldn't have to add that eight percent all at once yeah you know what use the money we're already levying for the roads to pay the bond right because that would still leave us money to do other stuff yeah as well yeah and then you can add in uh look slowly add back up to that you can you can you what you'll run into is you'll have to really scale back your annual projects right from a million dollars a year yeah and then you'll have a conversation you know how often do you want to bond we don't have the luxury of having laddered debt where we have debt falling off every couple years or we will have in about five years we will yeah we will so and we can structure the bond payment so that we may be paying interest only for the first year or two you know and then we phase in the principal payments but there's ways to do it and maneuver it so you can limit the the levy impact but you know because it'd be great to do a big project right now because the interest rate is going to be a little bit lower but just knowing there's going to be you know some levy impact to that that i think you're all aware of so but we can look at that definitely i think we have a future work session conversation about just what we want to do if we want to if we want to really crank it up for 2023 and start working on that now is the time to have that conversation because we should really start on uh my 429 process would it even be too late for 23 no for for engineering no we would just need to get going if you look at some of the 2024 projects it has a survey component the reclamation the reconstruction and even on sunnybrook circle we would need to get survey data because of all the small utilities so that's that's the um that's the time frame that we want to we need to get that before we get plans started so we would need to get so here's the thing let's just say that the council were to authorize that okay move forward with plans specifications whatever you need to do for that even if we didn't do the project in 23 those plans and specifications are still good for 24. correct you would and so you know and depending on the time frame too it could just be gathering the survey data and not even going into planned production yeah but either way we're going to need that engineering services anyway so okay no that's good that's good in input right because it kind of changes up the plan for a bit so what what i think the interest rates are kind of driving that and we can do a comparison of what they project and what what we would currently get and just you know what does that do with our total amount of money that we would have to pay or what our what our annual bond payment would be so we could look at that would you bring that back at the june 6 would ellers come at the june 6th meeting then i don't think they would need to come for that i think that they could just provide us that information pretty high level i sent him like what our did you know okay now what do you project a year from now and they could probably run some pro forma stuff first thing out okay well that scenario stuff make sure that we get that information june 6 and then also bring back a resolution to authorize to move forward with some of these things that we need to do for the 24 roads if we want to move them into 23. yeah yeah has there been any update on the king's point yeah i've got to know fred green quite well and gary and i are going to go out there for a little i don't know if they're going to have a little barbecue i think it's june 14th we're going to be out there maybe yeah so fred is kind of taking the lead in that neighborhood to gather information i know he's reached out to some council members but then he's come in and gary and i are going to go out there on the 14th to kind of talk to the neighborhood a little bit about what that means um talk about what we think the estimated cost would be what our current assessment policy is you know those numbers matt don't don't match up uh very well you know we're probably looking at a pretty significant assessment because it's a costly project with only i think 23 homes on it so you know just kind of laying it all out there and there he's fully aware of uh you know some uh decisions city council has made in the past about assessments and you know i don't there isn't an official cap but you know he's he's knows that knows what what's been done in the past so in the past am i wrong it has so i from what i gathered is uh when they did the kings point road up to the where it's bad now they had the option and they said no right it's too expensive there's been some turnover in the houses there's been a lot of turnover yeah so um yeah now that that road gary and i went on a drive and it's pretty it was pretty bad it's one of the i think it's worth the north arm is so what i you know i'm giving you know fred a little bit of insight i said strategically we would have to bond for that because you thought it was over a million oh it's well over that probably two oh wow with what you would extend at that time you might like send water up to the end of it then you must get that out of the way and have services put out and then you'd also extend your natural gas up that way but that wouldn't be on our dime that would be on ours but the water you know would still come out of the water from but right we'd be looking you'd be foolish not to have that right exactly yeah we should add that road to this list as well all right um so no no it definitely needs um good point no kathleen you're right he takes your phone call that says all these roads why did this one get left that's horrible like i mean if they're aware of the cost yeah yeah i mean i guess my thought on all of this is okay we're putting aside a million dollars a year for rose right well let's bond get a bunch of these done and then we don't have you know we have the money we're doing the projects and then we have less to spend in you know certain years because they're done now right and then again money to pay the bond without the finance right that's exactly right no it i mean it's an approach i have no idea what the actual need is right that's kind of one of the interesting outcomes of this exercise is what's the need you know immediate need is 20 million dollars right it'll be some astronomical number i'm just warning you it will be that's and uh you know then you have to pick you know what do we have available and how do you prioritize right is it kind of what it comes down to but yeah i don't know if there's i don't gary's got the best knowledge as far as what the worst road in town is king's point road is the worst one i've seen ranks up there yeah i think kings point in north arm so with that um we're kind of nearing we need to take a little bit of a break um but with that so i think we have we're going to consider adding possibly adding king's point then to this list for 20 23 possibly maybe um we're going to talk about bonding and we're going to talk about um oh and then we need um council direction on whether we want to do um why don't wsb why don't you bring that proposal back to our next meeting also on the 6th and then we can discuss it more at the regular meeting the the proposal for the survey or the the estimated cost of this exercise for the if directed by city uh council staff will solicit a proposal described kind of the gis exercises why don't you bring that back at the regular meeting with a proposal and then we can discuss it at that meeting along with all the other things that we're going to be discussing regarding the roads yeah all right does that mean meeting need to start at five well i think i think we should okay let me ask this are we going to discuss this at the work session and then bring it back to the council meeting or just discuss it at the council meeting roads i think yeah it's kind of the revamping of the schedule kind of based on the notes i've taken tonight work session for sure the the gis component of kind of gathering the data communicating the data that'll be on the regular meeting because that that's a um professional service agreement it is and then you know likely what i anticipate this spilling over is into the strategic planning session that we have on this 20 20 right that'll be a big part of that too and we can have some really good conversations we have a little bit more time the only thing the only thing we don't have a lot of time on is if we're going to add these roads to the 23 project we want to get going on the engineering end and all of the work that needs to be done in order to get that bid out in january so that's i know we're a little bit behind the eight ball already because we normally start this like in april so i want to see i would like to see a proposal for services then and and if you want to break it out i don't know but we need to get going on this okay so staff figure it out bring it back all right do we want to start out five then yeah yeah you might want to yeah yeah and if you want to put it all on the work session that's fine and then we'll just have to make sure we add it to the regular um meeting agenda or it can be on there already yeah okay yes so the next work session will be come study roads okay all right sounds good um we need to take a quick break ten minute break is there a motion to adjourn thank you kathleen is there a second thank you ann all those in favor signify with i i motion passes 5-0 we are adjourned and we'll be back in 10 minutes 00:00:01.990 --> 00:00:04.789 align:start position:0% so i'm going to call the meeting to order this is the minitrista city council work session for may 16th uh present this evening are myself i'm the mayor council members are pam martinson john chumperlin and mcgregor kathleen revkin in staff present um is allison falsky our end city engineer director of administration is ally paulfos public works superintendent gary peters don moscow our city clerk and jasper krueger our city administrator and brian grimm our finance director we have three items on our work session agenda compensat for discussion we have compensation study water infrastructure engineering and street project and maintenance so we're going to start with our compensation study discussion mr jasper thank you um thank you madam mayor members of council uh tonight uh we have an item that's coming to you kind of an unorthodox fashion uh that we received a couple of resignation letters from uh basically our community development department uh with the idea that uh we we have a compensation study that has been approved and we're in the middle of it and we're almost to the end of it where we're almost going to be talking to the personnel committee about the results and findings uh but tonight we're here to kind of talk about kind of those results and and and see if there's a solution that is out there to retain these two employees our community development director and our city planner so a little bit of a recap back on march that that market study was approved uh staff mostly uh ali kind of took off with that and i kind of joined the team with the compensation study i've been through three of those in my career so far one as a kind of a lower level employee one as a director level employee and then one as a city administrator and then now this one as a city administrator so i have a little bit of experience from all different levels of personnel so um as we kind of look at this you know we're kind of looking at that and in the in the perspective as the of the organization holistically so um just preliminarily from the results of looking at the market analysis and i know i'll say this probably a dozen times it's very challenging to kind of envision some of this data because you don't have it you haven't seen it you will see it uh you'll see it on i believe june 6th if everything goes well with the personnel committee meeting on the 24th but so fully acknowledging that that it's it's not quite there for review but uh we have gotten the results back and and depending on the positions minitrista uh was indicated to be between 10 and 25 below market on some of some of the wages depending on the position and in particular the highest one the 25 percent is related to the city planner position too so um and that's one of the ones that we're going to be talking about tonight a little bit in more detail so um again recapping on on the may 10th on tuesday uh the community development director and city planner uh submitted letters of resignation uh indicating that they're going to go to another city kind of an uh an interesting uh scenario where it's kind of a package deal where they're both going to go at the same time and in our department community development is literally those two people so there are there's a few support people in different aspects of it the building official and building inspector but really for development wise uh they're the two people that work on those so um talking uh with uh internal staff you know trying to figure out you know when these things happen uh one thing i do is you know what what's what's going on what's the reason uh what are what are the reasons why and really it came down to one opportunity i think there was some active recruitment from the other municipality and then there was uh you know the compensation i think kind of known compensation gap that they were willing to pay and we were kind of going to get there eventually so um having those conversations it seemed like the deficiency was was really related to compensation and what you're seeing tonight is kind of us expediting the process of the of the compensation study talking about it and and seeing if we can find a way to retain these in these two employees so a couple data points of interest when we're looking at this uh you know almost immediately ali and myself are looking at well what what are we gonna do if these two individuals leave how are we gonna fill uh that service gap that we would see with those two positions uh and likely in the short term we would have to look at consulting services or something like that and uh you know these are two full-time employee employees working eight hours a day uh if we can we can we can if we could cut down those hours uh you know that would be ideal because a consultant is is much more expensive than having your own staff so you know just a one-to-one we were looking at uh you know with a seven month replacement uh window which you might say that's a long time but that's kind of realistic uh in today's world because you might actually have to go at it a couple times we've had our police officer position posted we've reposted cso has been posted for a couple months i believe so the market is definitely a a workers market compared to an employer's market right now so um just trying to you know you'll kind of see this with me i want to be conservative with estimates but i also throughout there well let's say we you know either can fill it in three and a half months or we can somehow find some efficiencies to only have there be two people at halftime right you know we that's still a pretty significant amount of money in a seven month or three and a half month window or something like that so um you know looking at that that'd be the stop gap gap measurement stop gap measure that we would look at doing um in the short term to you know continue to provide those services to the community you know i think everybody's aware we have some legal obligations when when people submit permits and things like that otherwise they just get approved and we don't really have say and and we can't uh you know manage the city how we've determined we want to manage it so it's a very important uh position to to make sure that we're providing the service that we should be to the community um and then also one one note financial note is a severance payout and just to be clear that follows our personnel policy and that's related to pto and sick or sorry not pto vacation and sick that they have on the books that they've accrued as they're with with their time here so um vacation is paid out at 100 any sick balance is paid out at 55 so that's in the impo that's in the personnel policy and that's just uh a cost that we don't budget for annually so that's just something additional that we would have to come up with so um without having the luxury of time uh to to really move this comp study along you know that's why we're here tonight um so as you can clearly see you know we want to we want to have continue to have those levels of service the that these that the department provides to the community and these things ebb and flow right you know we woodland cove is a is a giant development that has been coming in uh with with new new uh um uh [Music] yeah yep units yup new using units new housing so you're going to start seeing an influx of building permits and things like that coming in and more questions and that's where that that support comes in so um you know fully acknowledging again that you don't see this comp study but uh one thing that we've looked at ali myself and then kelly who who uh the personnel committee will will meet um i think virtually on the 24th uh he's the individual that works for david drown associates that's really kind of driving this and and gathering all of the data um you know some of the questions that i received you know what what's the implementation cost um you know and this is to talk about if we want to expedite this i think we had uh from what i've gathered uh a 1-1 2023 projected implementation date um you know what we're proposing and talking with the personnel committee is potentially moving that up to june 1st or have it be a june 1st effective date with i think june 6 would be our first meeting in june and that would be where the full comp plan and pay plan would be evaluated um so in 2022 this is a number that's important right because the general fund would have an impact of 93 000 to implement how it is right now sight unseen from everybody right but if it would roll out just kind of almost perfectly the way that it's set up and it's set up um you know you'll get again you'll see it in a in a more simplistic manner than what we have right now but to implement it right now would be ninety three thousand dollars uh in the general fund about twenty two thousand dollars in the various enterprise funds one thing that we're going to do and through this exercise is for the 2023 budget we're gonna really take a look at each individual position and make sure that the cost centers associated with a match up with the duties that they're performing so that you know like um you know i don't even know what brian's is i'll call him out but you know making sure that you know because he's doing work for the enterprise funds general fund he's doing work for every fund and making sure that that's all split up accordingly making sure that matches up with uh with with with what's actually happening so um it's just good uh good to check on that every every year or so and and making sure that that's appropriate so um looking at that uh you know just some numbers again throwing those out because they're important is this 93 000 would have a about a one point eight two percent levy impact uh so if you think of that you know you roughly have about um fifty one thousand dollars per one percent so if your levy goes up fifty one thousand dollars it means your levy goes up one percent roughly keep in mind i didn't put it in the memo if you recall your q1 quarterly report we're about thirty thousand dollars in the black for uh general fund salaries just because of the movements with the city administrator and and and some hiring challenges and things like that so so we're already kind of in the black a little bit if that helps with the decision-making process with this um so we are showing some some surplus there through q1 at least um and then just again the enterprise funds not much there 22 000 and that's spread between the storm water water sanitary sewer and cable funds um and then also of note and you'll see it tonight during the audit presentation uh we have a a fund balance policy here of somewhere between 40 and 40 minimum 40 to 50 percent you'll see we're at about a 59 uh and you guys have done some work and i've done some deficit spending at least in 2021 and you'll see that in the audit as well to kind of get that uh fund balance down a little bit it's a very healthy fund balance um you know and it's it's a good place to be and and the arpa funds and the karzak money that definitely helped out uh to try to get to that position where we're at right now so i'd say you know my analysis is the fund balance of minitrista is pretty pretty good um so what we're looking at is a recommended course of action uh personnel and personnel committee met on friday or was it thursday thursday thursday met on thursday uh kind of went through this this whole spiel of all this data what's happening um and the recommendation from the group was to proceed we have us we have a couple of resolutions um that that could be added to the agenda tonight uh that would that would one promote uh the city planner to senior city planner with a salary adjustment and then the community development director would receive a salary adjustment from their current pay so those things are are ready to go if we choose to get the direction from the from tonight to move forward with that uh it's essential if we want to retain them that we that we do take action tonight i don't like to put pressure i don't like pressure on myself or pressure on city council to make decisions because sometimes we need to take our time but uh quite literally if if we don't that they're just gonna they they have offers on the table uh to move on they would they would move on so i just wanna make sure that that's clear um so what those resolutions would read in detail is uh we would promote the city planner to a city uh senior city planner with an annual salary of 91 182.62 cents effective june 1 2022. um that number you know it's kind of it's not a it's it's it's not a round number and that's because it fits in with the pay plan that you guys again haven't seen yet um and then the second resolution would be to adjust the salary of the community development director to 126 607 34 effective june 1. again not a round number fits in with the pay plan and i want to just make sure there's an emphasis that these numbers with the the senior city planner and the community development director they fit within the grades of the proposed pay plan that you'll see um and i think they fall into a grade 7 out of 10 for at least the city the community development director i know ali has this probably pulled up already and then the the the city planner one would fall into a grade three you're talking steps steps sorry so grade 10 for community development director in grade 8 for senior planner yep and then step seven for community development step three for plan senior planner so uh what that means is there's basically if we adopt the plan there'd be three years of growth for the the community development director and up to seven uh for the senior planner um and then what the what the other direction would be from from this group that's recommended is to expedite the review of the updated market study and pay plan to occur at that june 6 2022 work session and then at that regular meeting uh if if it's recommended for approval we could we could evaluate that approval that night and then implement on june first first uh 2022 one of the things that the personnel committee some staff brought up was this equity amongst staff right because that's a big deal um and having an implementation date of the same date for both of these even though they're kind of that they'd be happening at separate times um is important right for internal equity within the organization so i'm sure there's a lot of questions uh but what we're looking for is just consideration direction to add an item to the agenda tonight uh if if this group so so chooses and those are queued up and and what they would do is they would retain both the city planner as a city or senior city planner and then a salary adjustment for the community development director and ali is kind of the the whiz behind all of the data so she's got all of that up there if there's any specific questions or things of that nature you know it is a work in progress and it's almost daily we're working with uh with kelly from from david drown and i will say that it's um i've been impressed with with them and their responsiveness and just the ability to work through some of these you know kind of call it a fire drill last week uh to really help us kind of understand what we what we can do and what's what's appropriate so with that i'll entertain any questions i know brian we brought brian in um he's part of the personnel committee and allie's obviously uh you know leading the project so i'll entertain any questions and then we can have a free-flowing discussion all right thank you obviously there's going to be questions i also had an opportunity to talk with david um and uh he said it really was um he was recruited he wasn't looking and he said he was asked multiple times by this by um this other city to join their their staff and he said it really was it just came down to to money the the offer that they were making him was substantial so um and same same with nick both of them said they loved working here they like the atmosphere they like staff they liked council it really just kind of came down to money the other thing when we looked at a compensation study this was a number of years ago um this was through um gamache david gamache was it george thank you and he said usually employees and you might know this because you were in the corporate world usually employees won't move for a small amount i thought he said it was somewhere less than 10 000 or something like that or 10 but they will move for a bigger amount and so i think what this study and and we can get some data here too tonight what other cities are paying their um community development directors um i think it shows that we're underpaying them right now just because of the market the way the market is today so can we go okay um jessica and i were on the phone for a long time this morning and um probably the most poignant point that he made to me was that this um same position and laser has not been filled for 11 months wow which does is a big deal um we talked and i asked all my questions and some of them i'll put on the record tonight for anybody listening and then um i pretty much got there but here's my question that was just brought up by what you were saying what's to say that the city that has offered them the jobs won't come back you can counter that's greater than this they might they might we don't know and then what are we going to do but so my understanding from what david told me he says they made an offer he said no they made another offer he said no and that was the third time that they came back so again i don't know um the city can you say what city it is it's public knowledge right yes so the city is rogers uh they are growing of they're they're growing i mean like leaps and bounds and i know that they do not have currently a um community development director and they might be short staffed in their planning department that i don't know but i think what they did is they just said we have to offer them the best we can do i think they're in the same situation that lasers and they haven't been able to find or they're they're panicking not panicking but concerned that they won't be able to find somebody so i think that's why they made the offer to both because they need both is my now whether they come back and make a bigger offer i don't know but i don't think my opinion is we can't go higher than this that's what i want to hear that i want and because it starts to skew right across the whole sure absolutely i don't have any issue with the step making more money i just don't want to get any out of hand for the budget so um yeah i i think if this if they accept this and the other community comes back and says more and they want to go there this this situation for them is far better than rogers distance wise to work number one they know the community they know staff they know the council they like it here so i my guess would be it might take quite a bit more for rogers maybe another 10 grand i don't know but if if they do when they leave that's it i mean we can't keep going back to the table from my perspective i think they just want to be feel like they're in the ballpark compensated reason and they do really want to stay here genuinely i picked up on from time to time right and they they definitely do i spoke with david and he said they talked themselves into it pretty hard leaving he said when we heard there was an option to stay that wasn't it was easy to talk themselves into staying yeah just to give you a perspective from me it's very helpful input thank you [Music] yeah it's it's a big it's a big jump for both of them now the other thing is before jasper came on board i don't know exactly when and maybe so mike roney was talking about we need to think about and i don't know if he mentioned it to the council but he said we do need to think about uh promoting um nick to senior planner because if we don't he's gonna leave so we've kind of known that and and this study was hopefully going to then solidify what we were going to do it's just their departure or their potential departure has come a little bit premature [Music] in the scenario if rogers came back and raised the ante and they go and we get the official david drown document and we deem that we do need to increase so we would be back to analyzing each position and making it effective january one correct i think if we no longer are under the gun i guess is the way i look at it and i recognize if we did two of them on june 1 yes right right you need to keep them in step but if we don't have to do it june 1 would we go back to january 1. i would recommend no because i know other employees key employees are looking and i think certain key employees that are very very valuable and needed so again when we're looking at at these bigger gaps i think we need to act sooner than later because we don't want those key positions to be vacant for any length of time and they could potentially take a long time not even not even independent of if anyone is looking i'm not looking at myself but it's public record it's out there it's like now you're gonna we're gonna do it for these two but now it's not good enough for the rest of everyone else for june 1. i think there's a perception potential problem for that i i agree i think um i think we take the hit either way any other question i would have and it it doesn't sit comfortably with me but it's not our problem is his ethics his what what did they agree with with rogers and does rogers know that right up until the last day they can back out i haven't i worked for cardio for umpteen years so i never went somewhere else to sign a letter of intent or whatever the term would be is there no legal binding from on their part they can just whatever yeah they can they're they're at will employees so they can leave and i think uh their rogers is fully aware that this could have happened right so they kind of understand what they what they what what they're attempting to do um they i think they can anticipate what our reaction would be could be so it's not out of the realm that they're anticipating this right now happening so uh you know it is it's it's unorthodox right it doesn't happen like this very frequently um really at all i've never heard of it yeah i haven't either uh you know and it but it was it's it's i've never had a basically a whole department try to leave right so that's also unorthodox all at once so it's kind of an interesting thing to evaluate but um you know i think rogers i think is fully anticipating we're going to have this conversation you know there's some what's happening is the baby boomers are retiring i mean that's a big part of it um they're retiring and we don't have enough backfill coming in and we don't have enough people wanting to go into municipal or government positions so um it's it's a big problem but it's also a problem in the i call it the real world the other other part you know private business it's it's a real problem well the market crash continues we won't have to worry about it baby boomers will be back to work [Laughter] cargill's hiring john yeah okay are we going to need a city planner then no um no we would not so this would this would fill in that position we wouldn't need to backfill that city planner it would be a replacement we might look at in 2023 potentially some internship placement things like that kind of bounce some ideas as far as the planning department goes to you know maybe get some people acquainted with minitrista if there if there ever is a need right because we're going to be growing as a as a community one of the things and i haven't pitched this yet to the group is uh kind of a staffing plan right as we grow what can you expect that we're going to need for staffing and you know that that department is one of the most important departments that we have it's going to grow so making sure that you know we we have partnerships with the university of minnesota where we can get some uh you know people straight out of college straight out of grad school that can maybe come to minitrista and kind of be acquainted with us already through an internship program they're fairly inexpensive but it really helps us you know helps the community the community development community get to know us a little bit so i would say not for a little while but that'll be a conversation i'd like to have with the group as far as just how you know let's have some thoughtful growth growth as far as staff goes because we're going to see the population increase and the the service levels are going to need to be maintained uh you know what does that mean you know as far as staff goes can i have one more thing absolutely absolutely i'd like to hear their questions first because i was part of the personal committee one thing that hit home with me as well is if they did decide to leave um we would probably have to post the position at higher level anyway because jasmine said that it was that community was smaller than us that was very quebecer that was right now what we're proposing so even you know if we don't maintain these guys who we know their work ethics we know that they're great employees um we would be hiring somebody new at the same rate that we would be losing them at yeah and the timing on this uh we all know it i'm just verbalizing um the timing and not not having seen the study not having any idea what the actual ranges are from the study or anything else it's um not the best but this is what we're faced with and um i would agree um they are excellent employees and so we would like to keep them ellie do you know um do we know what similar communities like victoria maybe mound some of those that are also growing community or not mound isn't but yeah i can kind of go through so for david's position mound pays 124. orono is 113. victoria's 118. sure what is 124 or coney is 132. and why is that as 121. keep in mind david's been here for eight eight years i thought it was longer longer than that position oh okay yep and then for nick's new position we didn't have quite as good of comps but carver county pays 88 andover pays 94. chan pays 93 elk river 92 excelsior 90 minnetonka 100 savage 96 st louis park 94. a lot of some communities don't have a senior planner it's a city planner so and he was even 30 below those city planners so okay just as an idea so the average for nick's position in other communities is 94. the average for david and other communities is 118. that's helpful that's very good that's good information yeah yeah and this is what you'll see a lot of it okay at the next meeting all right very good and they to reiterate jasper's point they both fall in the play pay plan that we had come up with prior to even getting these resignation notices we didn't adjust the plan to fit these salaries if that makes sense they fit in to where the data was telling us they should be paid which is also helpful to know for you guys also based on um years of in their position and so on yeah that's taken steps yep that's taken into consideration a question that i did get um was at some point when we actually get this study are we going to see like uh somewhat of a hierarchy of people for each of these cities and what and what they make yes yeah we should see comparisons yes yeah and you'll see kind of on a granular level and then it'll be put together on a nice spreadsheet where you can see where each position is below market above market app market and how that kind of okay yep now it's going to save us from getting a sneak peek at it a lot of the numbers were similar when you look at waconia shorewood and stuff you know a couple of them were higher than what we placed top level or lower similar so also this will as you can probably surmise that this will adjust other positions as well right so just be prepared okay and i don't know how much okay but the 93 000 that you're quoting is for all the positions or just these two all of them approximately non-union positions yes correct yeah yeah non-union so not police officers public workers yeah yeah yeah okay and that's for them for the last seven months of this year okay so yes obviously so what are you telling us that that is fluid it is somewhat because what there's going to be ranges and i mean that is if we implement what we have today in the personnel committee kind of accepts what we where we place people um the comparisons i mean that could vary i don't think it would affect that 93 much if at all that kind of in mind in jasper's mind kind of the top that would be the implementation okay so it could be a little less but it's probably going to fall it should be right around there would you look at it as the personal committee would you look at each position individually yeah because it would also have to be commensurate on on their number of years of service too and in that position yeah yeah what we would do we'll look at each individual employee we'll look at the the grade that they're supposed to be in and then where they're placed there'll be a justification of you know they had this many years of service prior to being here they've had this many years of service here so you'll see some some um you know objective data to why they're you know a step seven versus a step three in that grade and uh you know that'll each employ each of the 15 employees will have that kind of summary and i yeah i guess to go off that there are some positions that are at market so they won't get as much of an adjustment as others so that's also taken into account too it's not like we're doing a flat you know 10 across the board or anything like that and the other thing too i should point out i don't remember when it was um we did a market adjustment was it like maybe six years five six years ago fifteen sixteen i wanna say yeah around there so there were number we knew um so chief was one for instance um we knew that he was way under market so we did do some adjustments like i thought it was um ryan chief maybe even david there were a few adjustments and we said you know we need to keep a pace with this but in the last couple years it just has outpaced everything the adjustments i think if i remember correctly we're more at least getting to the lower half of the ring it wasn't well to get into that range right range but it wasn't to go to the top of the range no no or even mid to top or whatever and even if you look at paul's i think currently is still probably on the lower end just as a very much so um it's it's the market that's driving this and it's the workforce that's driving it yeah and i will note you will see this this this will be fluid as more people retire what city what you found out right you're you're going to pay somebody probably more than that person that retired to fill that same position right so you'll see this kind of turnover domino effect and this is going to be this is just problematic for municipalities to kind of keep up because you're going to see so much of this turnover and it'll be challenging we'll just have to keep our finger on the pulse of it and just keep talking about it right because the worst thing you can do is like not talk about it for seven years and then all of a sudden where we're at right now so um you know you'll hear me talk about it you'll be very informed about the market and what's going on and you know you'll have to make those policy decisions on where we want to be in that market so should we be looking at this i mean we have been looking at it annually in terms of increases but is it like every year you you can't do a study every single year no so our step program that we're proposing has 10 steps so every year they would get a cola plus a step until they top out of that position i mean not to dive into the pay plan too much but okay that's what we're proposing is the cola for the cost of living and then kind of a market adjustment every year steady we can plan for it but that's kind of what we're proposing with this pay plan instead of well let's just go with the cola again this year um just so we can keep up with the pace yeah yeah and yeah not to get into too many details i mean you'll you'll really have you'll have control of the pay plan obviously right and the distance between the steps but you'll really have control of the the cola and you can look at what the market's doing and say oh you know the cpi for 2024 is one we'll be optimistic 1.5 percent right and then you say oh we're going to adjust it just cola for the cpi and we're at 1.5 and then everybody gets their step and you know it you stay within the market pretty dang close okay um but really i mean full control of the city council has full control of the cola and really the pay plan too i mean you can adjust that as you as you feel you want to but um you know really it's the cola and you know we're gonna see probably eight percent cpi this year again we're not going to see an eight percent cost of living adjustment uh you know so you know those things have been flowing they kind of you know balance out at two and a half percent three percent and just kind of you live with the the outliers a little bit so um but yeah you'll have more control it'll keep us in market for longer uh they do have i know david drowne has services that they can do a comp check-in for you know i don't know 1500 or something like that a year and they'll just kind of tell you they'll use the same spreadsheet that we have right now they'll say those populated with new data say oh yeah you guys are within this range of the market and you should maybe do a you know you're good or you should do another they'll give us a recommendation so but generally these things should last at least three years you know before you really have to make any adjustments and it might just be a positional adjustment because all of a sudden there's no you know finance directors you know just can't find them um or something like that right so okay other questions concerns okay so we'll add this to the agenda at our regular meeting then um will it be under business or will it be consent it'll have to be business business okay under business all right all right so we'll move on to our water infrastructure engineering all right i will take that over madam mayor members of council uh so tonight we're really um kind of reaffirming some direction i think i've received just through general comments from city council members that we want to kind of look at doing a request for proposals for engineering services related to the infrastructure projects we have on the horizon here uh the the two wells in the treatment plant um just a point of clarification i know it's you guys have we've done a lot of test wells so i think we're on test well i'm looking at gary uh tesla's 10 and 11 is that correct right now or work and then our production wells are going to be eight and nine sure so just you know there's a lot of those numbers floating around and um but yeah they're there's we've done a lot of tests well so um looking at those two projects i've kind of outlined i know you guys have been through this process before and it would likely mirror it you know kind of with with uh the the treatment plants that were built in the water tower with that sch was awarded but really the two options that i'm outlining are just to do a request for proposals for the specific well and treatment plan options or projects and then the second one is to do a request for proposals for those projects but then just general water infrastructure engineering uh really having a point uh engine engineering group that knows our water infrastructure system that the our water model lives with and that really is is helping us guide our decision making over at least the next you know short term five years um you kind of see how it goes and then if you like them you like them if not you know it's a contract you can get out of it at any time if you want to but really kind of a long-term commitment from an engineering firm and a long-term commitment from the city to really help make uh you know innovative decision-making uh for future projects as we grow as a community and really get to understand what what our needs are and how we're going to address those with water conservation and you know it's been raining quite a bit so now it's we're not really thinking about droughts but you know those things happen and how we you know have those conscious decisions about or you know the discussions about how we make those decisions and you know be forthright about hey you know we're not going to plan for a drought but if we would this is what it would cost so you know those kind of conversations that we've been having over the last year you know over the last year so um so option one would really be just the project specific one option two would be the project specifics with um you know some some additional just water engineering uh infrastructure consultant services for for a five-year period so the timeline for this really we're looking at it tonight at the work session trying to get some direction if the direction is to go either with either one of these options then maybe there's another option out there that we're not thinking about but would be to come to city council for a review of the rfp language and then establish an ad hoc review committee so a committee of uh maybe a couple council members that would do the initial vetting of the proposals and then that group would then make a recommendation for you know maybe two or three engineering firms to come and present at a city council meeting where then a decision would be made on the on the process so looking at june 6th for for that action and then that july 5th through the 13th that group would then evaluate the the rfps july 19th uh that short list would be brought to a city council meeting and then potentially august 1st that first meeting in august there would be an engineering services agreement and then they could get started the the one piece i want to make sure is clear is that the the wells in in the woodland cove area it's challenging to get in there right now so i think it's safe to say that they're probably gonna not maybe be done by june first i think that was the deadline where um you're correct i think the the amount of rain we've had i don't see them being able to get that get in there so one of the concerns i have is you know timing wise we want to make sure that we stay on this and we're we're moving along you know this rfp process potentially could go until august 1st right that well potentially could be done maybe around july 1st if it's delayed a month so we're really talking about a one month window where we're kind of in limbo waiting to figure out what's going to happen maybe that's enough time and it matches up well with with the project if it's delayed so i just want to be clear on that that the process does have a little wiggle room if we want to expedite it you know have a shorter maybe a two-week window where we're collecting uh proposals that might limit the number of people that we would get that one month is is generally accepted and it's enough time for us to solicit to the potential vendors uh and and get those and gather those proposals so there is a little wiggle room but i want to make sure it's clear that we're looking at an august first date and there's probably another month where they need to kind of get an understanding of what's going on you know if it's if it's an outside firm so want to make sure the timeline is clear and that there aren't any surprises there one of the things we need to know though is okay you're saying so for instance if we were to uh select a candidate and approve something on august 1st that doesn't mean that all the specs are going to be in place for the new wells so now you're looking at drilling the new wells in that's not going to happen until probably september or october so we're i mean i guess i'm kind of concerned about that time frame yep that that is that's true it'd probably take a couple months 60 days to develop those plans and specs especially if it's a new engineering firm that's coming in you can drill wells in the in the winter so they could work throughout the winter and realistically aren't we looking at having these wells online probably for 2023 unless i'm missing something so i don't think this this timeline throws anything off that bad we're not gonna have i mean even if they're in october we're pretty much past the well the only thing no no no the the timing is because we have to know that those wells are going in a specific place and then once we know that place so we're hoping this test will then we can start planning for the treatment plant and if we're moving the wells out two to three to four months now we're also moving those plans and everything of the treatment plan because it's not necessarily the wells it's a treatment plant that has to come online be in order to service the community it's the treatment plant that i'm concerned about but the wells have to come first so we know where the treatment plant goes no you're not and you know um worst case is they have to find an alternative location um then woodland cove right and then we're doing more test wells well hopefully we're not yeah um but what i'm asking is it does it does it does push it into the winter um but you can start designing the treatment plant in the winter that that's the longest time period as far as design goes that'll be i don't know six months you could actually start designing some of it now already i mean what you're waiting for the what your test results are going to be from your for your test while doing your um all the testing of the water there is going to give you what the filter requirements are going to be but i mean as far as the building and that stuff goes i mean they could start looking at the design of it already i mean to start planning the actual building itself so that's going to be in there because we know what you know right you know what we're going to go for gallons we always want expandables i mean there is stuff that you could already do and start prepping you know as well as are being developed so well i have a question yeah why would we do any of this before we know whether or not the test goals even work i mean let's let's say these ones don't work we've done all this gone out for rfps and everything and we're back at square one like well i understand designing the treatment plant now because you're right we don't that we just have to specify all the stuff but everything else it's kind of putting the cart in front of the horse isn't it we don't know if the test wells work and let's say it continues to rain and they can't get out there until july i mean who knows what this weather is going to do with this so i guess i'm just confused why we'd start doing all this before we even have test faults yeah i'll circle back um i think we're kind of i don't know if i'm reading the room correctly but option two is kind of more general water infrastructure engineering if we just be looking at option one you're exactly right um if we're looking at water infrastructure engineering as a whole for the for the city then i think we can do that at any time right because we're going to rely on them to provide information and guidance on the wells and everything so they might they might look at this and they might say well maybe you should try this and they might have some different ideas even than what we what we have right now um so if you're looking at option one yeah maybe we should wait until we find water uh you can still go through the exercise and talk about it and try to select somebody that you feel comfortable with because uh from my experience you're gonna get a lot of firms that are at the same price points like you're not going to get a deal somewhere it's going to be you know 15 to 20 percent engineering costs on these big projects and um you know so that'll be the same it's really about who's a good fit for what we need to do and if that weld project gets pushed out a little bit you'll still have there's no harm in going through the process right because you're not going to start uh you know paying them to engineer this thing that they're not even doing yet because they can't do it but you've you've selected who's going to do it so they can when when that time comes um if we're going down option two to the more uh general water infrastructure engineering i think you can do that at any time as well too just to kind of secure that that group so um well i think maybe though it might be good to start an rfp process if we want to if we want to go out for rfps it might be okay to go out now even though we don't know for sure that the wells are going to be at least we'd have we'd know which firm we're going with for for the engineering otherwise if we wait until the test wells that's to your point we don't even know if it's going to be july 1st maybe it's august 1st if we wait till august 1st now then we and then we go out for rfps as you can see by this timeline now we're looking at probably october or november before we get an engineering firm online to start designing the plant how's you i mean i personally like the idea and obviously it's council some uh to discuss but the option too to have someone in place for uh yeah because you know like some of us have been through that we went through wsb bolton make and sch all on same projects and that was pretty tough transition it'd be nice just to i'll leave it at that but um it'd be nice to just um have someone for the next three four five years or whatever to say you're going to be doing you're a water infrastructure and there is even other firms i mean sch and wsb do fine but there's firms i think me and jasper have talked that maybe specialize a little more in water maybe they're not as much municipal engineers but they're more specialized in water type projects and whether they throw the hat in the ring or not i guess that's up to them i guess yeah and i'd actually like to see that i'd like to know what's available what kind of knowledge is available and see if we get the best we can get and i take it that option one is is staying with wsv and option two is just seeing if there is more knowledge out there is that what we're saying i i'd say no i i think that the two options would have very similar paths it'd just be different scopes you'd have a you'd have a um more of a general engineering kind of uh concept with the second one where uh the first one would just be strictly project bases which i think you're used to with the seh um rfp that you went through and yeah 20 seh one was just the water treatment plants the water main and the water tower and then it ends where this would be for a period of time so maybe there's even something else in years four and five that come up that they start working on for us not just two or three designated projects what would be the advantage of that versus just doing project specific there'd be clear boundaries clear defined boundaries about who's working on what um you know right now there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen we've got wsb we got svh providing some water guidance so there's a little bit of that going on there's history with that so i understand that but you just have clear defined boundaries of who's working on what you know okay wsb's our city engineer uh they're working on the you know street projects uh you know that that scope and then you know not saying that ws wsb will likely submit a proposal for the you know it could be could be the wsb for both of them but you'd have clear boundaries as far as who's working on what if there were two different firms so that that would be beneficial from a staff standpoint because there'd be a point person um you know that that's really working on that and then there's clear boundaries so that would be helpful okay so kathleen options to use fine i mean are you okay going forward now i mean yes yeah okay john option two okay i'm fine with that one question i have is um mike right now is our water specialist right gary mike at the water treatment plant he's your operator yeah and um i know it's an ongoing you know training for him with that company work with mike very closely to keep training him and i know mike is probably going to be retiring well don't say don't say that and um so you know we want to start grooming someone to replace mike because that day will come and we unfortunately i think we already have somebody that's no we don't all right you're right gary and i have talked about succession planning for that position too and trying to figure out i don't know what the consensus is if it's two or three years or something like that could be sooner it could be tomorrow right no you never know but um but we've started talking about that and i know gary's got some organizational ideas right for for the public works department as it grows or needs to grow about having a position you know that that could be groomed in and you'll have to make a decision as far as the council goes you know that you're going to pay somebody to overlap so you get that training which is i think important right but as gary alluded to there might not be that person on staff right now so that might be something we look at for the 2023 budget to get some overlap and get somebody that can kind of capture mike's institutional knowledge and you know that's that's the biggest challenge right a lot of the stuff is in in your head and you don't have it written down and i know that you've been working with mike to get some of that stuff documented sops and things of that nature so we're working on it but um you know i think the 2023 budget process we're gonna have to have a conversation about succession planning and just the kind of growth and expansion of the water department or utility department and the the public works option two would really help because i think this last summer we ran into you talked to wsb do you talk to sch and maybe i'm thinking of my perspective at least but this would alleviate that hopefully it should yep yep no it wouldn't in that in that case definitely you'd have a point person to ask questions how do we make this plant more efficient or is it operating at its peak efficiency you know things like that and we could hold them to the fire and make them figure it out so um okay so we're on board with option two um and then an ad hoc committee um do you want that tonight i mean do you want people to kind of volunteer raise your hand maybe yeah yeah okay we have one volunteer do we have another yes okay is that okay i'll do it all right so we have n and is that okay yes okay so we have ann and kathleen all right okay and then um what do you will you bring this back when will you bring this back at a regular meeting yeah on the sixth of june okay yep i'll uh we'll have a formal rfp that you can evaluate basically we just need your approval to go out and solicit it and it's a one month solicitation period um you know we'll start gathering some i know gary's got contacts in other municipalities and what they use just to kind of get get it out to maybe some vendors that we don't know the only question i would have is would the ad hoc committee prior to it coming back on june 6 would they review the rfp um language or is that just we could do that if they're if you just send it out to them and then if they have questions i'm pretty sure whatever questions you have we might have too so you might as well ask them ahead of time okay all right on that gary so you've got plans for what p for public works needs are you gonna give that to brian and then we can have a discussion about what roles need to be filled yeah we're been working on that's my next step is to kind of come forth with that so and that won't be part of this you know thing but yeah um [Music] with that can i just ask where we at with the public works um position interviews next week okay how many people three i don't see their own pretty promising we have a good feeling about it okay and would any of them have any background in water yeah yeah okay so that's good all right all right um anything else then on that subject questions comments all right then we'll move on to our street capital improvement and maintenance planning discussion all right madam mayor members of city council uh this is kind of a affirmation of kind of some side conversations that we had some main conversations at meetings about just kind of uh taking a look at the way we address street maintenance and street projects in minnetrista and how we really convey that information to the public and use it as a tool to help educate people really it's kind of what i came up with um and it's not just me it's working with allison and gary on this quite a bit and really what i what i did i kind of took a holistic look at what we have done here and we have a lot of the tools and we have a lot of the data you know we have the pci and we have a very robust and detailed spreadsheet at the moment of what's what the needs are in the community for basically every street but really what i found one of the i don't know i call it deficiencies or one of the challenges was like understanding what that is right because personally i'm a visual person and i'm looking i need to look at a map i want to look at a map and i want to see what's all going on and i think that's for me and i think a lot of people it's the easiest way to convey what that message is and and what the plan is and um you know so that's one of the pieces that you'll see in this this proposal is really you know i think we have the data i think we've done a really nice job of gathering that data and collecting the right data it's just really how do we package it and communicate that with the public and that's really what this is so looking at this and this will aid in all the conversations we have about budget planning and what streets we're going to do and um you know do we have corings done do we have all the prep work done for these streets and and really we'll be able to look at it holistically because one of the one of the metrics that i don't know if we've looked at in detail here that i know gary really prioritizes is the year that streets are built right because there's a pretty established regression line of you know you build a street you should do this on this period of time then you should do there for maintenance and then eventually you're gonna have a project in 12 to 15 years and you know really where we at where do we have projects that we need to get done and really just look at it at that and then kind of use the the the um pci as a secondary confirmation or maybe a flag it or ask a question um because really a lot of them fall into line with the regression of the age and one of the things that that that i've noticed and gary and elson have brought it up to my attention is you know we have a lot of roads that are in that window of potentially needing a mill and overlay that aren't even on the 10-year plan right now just mostly i think from what i've gathered just they're cost prohibitive right it's it's just so expensive to do this so we're prioritizing the really really bad roads maybe we're you know this this whole system will help us help me help us help everybody understand really where we're at like snapshot of the city uh because you know one of the things that is uh in in the back of our mind is while we're prioritizing the really really bad roads we're getting those done but maybe we're missing a window for some of these roads that that that could be saved and and you know follow that normal regression and and uh you know repair schedule and we can get the most out of them but we might miss that window because we just don't know we're not thinking about or talking about it uh that's kind of why we thought next year we would do a lot of mill and overviews so that we can get to those streets that are still savable yep no no for sure and i think yeah next year and i dug into it and looking at the kind of we don't adopt a plan but really we have kind of a plan right we kind of know what what area we're going to do next here's the turtle creek uh neighborhood and gary and i went out and we drove around today and looked at it and he kind of showed me what was going on out there and i mean it needs it it needs it i mean it's if we let it go much much longer it's going to go to the point where it's going to be up yeah a reclamation so it'll help me understand i think it'll help everybody understand if we kind of go through this exercise of kind of consolidating the data having one one area where we where we store it and then you could have the option of looking at it on a map with different various layers or if you really wanted to look and dig into a spreadsheet look at a big spreadsheet and and pick pick it apart if you want you kind of look at it so really what this what this is what's being proposed tonight is basically establishing an online mapping system that easily conveys those road conditions so the metrics that i've identified road conditions so that's pci and that's also field field verified by our public works engineering staff you know pci can tell you maybe it's at an 85 but you know you see some raveling or something like that and it's it's it's an 85 on the pci but really you got to address something quicker so i put a lot of uh emphasis on that field verification piece so current road conditions the road condition history so if you have a pci you know i envision a graph that can kind of show you oh pci is going down oh you did a seal coat or a crack seal or you did some did a project pops back up and then it starts regressing regressing again you know if we if we capture that pci data every three years you should have a nice kind of picture of what's going on on a single stretch of road anywhere in the city year built last maintenance task or project with the year completed the next maintenance task or project with the proposed year comprehensive three-year project display so you can see what's the next three years look like you know 2023 you know this is pretty solid this is what we're going to do 2024 you know 95 sure we're going to do this you know 2025 you know probably you know 85 sure we're gonna do this and then you know looking at the data you know you kind of just keep replacing that third year project with what the next year priority is um and then a comprehensive three-year maintenance display because that's a big piece too there's a lot of gravel roads in this community the gravel roads they need attention too they actually cost quite a bit of money to maintain and we put a lot of gravel into it a lot of grading a lot of ditch work so you know looking at those those are kind of forgotten at times right yeah you know and they're but they're very important we have a lot of i don't even know if uh here you know how many miles of gravel road we have 20 miles 20 miles yeah i mean that's that's a significant amount of of uh mileage that we have to maintain and then the the estimated project cost or project or maintenance cost so if we have a million overlay in 2024 what's that estimated project cost that can help people kind of understand maybe what their assessments could be um you know because that's the next question when is my road going to get done and then what is what's my assessment going to be are you going to assess so you know having that information would be very helpful for you know a front desk staff like darcy that can answer the phone and somebody's got a question she could pull up a map and say oh where do you live put in an address well we don't have anything planned for the next three years but if you're interested now you know the last time you had a project done was 2012 and it was a million overlay you know stuff like that i think that would be useful um and then really using that tool in that spreadsheet database gis as a tool to set the budget and just review it annually for financial accuracy right now we're in kind of a volatile period of time where supply chains are in question uh you know material prices are going up faster than they have traditionally so you know understanding what those costs are so we don't kind of overshoot what our financial capabilities are and understanding that and and making sure that we're kind of that per unit price or per square foot price or whatever the unit is for that type of project you know we're able to update that annually and kind of feel good about it about where we're at so you know really to me um you know it's not as as bad of a situation as it could be i think you guys have done a lot of good work to capture a lot of data it's just really conveying that data to staff to the public to the city council in a manner that you can understand because it's super complex right there's a lot of things going on a lot of considerations so um in order to update this then every year every year we would be doing some corings so right now we have corings we think for three years right i mean yes we were looking at three years worth of chlorine data and we could certainly look at economies there's not a lot of upfront costs to get the cor coring crew out here um so you could certainly look at annual coin or look at it every two years okay because then we'd want to update because this is a five-year plan right now so we want to continue so that we know what we're going to be doing correct yeah we don't have any accordions from hunter's cross area right so we'd have to do those next year probably so we know um and then the other thing is also since again on this list north arm morning view and all these other mill and overlays so am i understanding you correctly then you're probably we're gonna have to bond for this because obviously we don't have that kind of money so we're looking at a um one through a four five nearly a six no just under six million dollar bond or roughly we want to do that sooner rather than later bond prices are going on you would um there's some are there there's some regulations that don't let you borrow money and just sit on it and hold it for extended periods they generally like to see you brian probably knows more but within 18 months spend the money on the project you know so that you're expending those um well that's not an issue i mean we can move up the roads i mean we don't have to wait and do hunters crest in 2027 and 26 i mean if we bond for it now we can go out to bid next year for more than one road project we we can and and that's a great point i mean interest rates are likely going to continue to go up you know we're probably and i don't know brian if you have your finger on the pulse of this but we're probably at a three seven five to four if we would sell a bond right now somewhere right in that range um you know two years ago it was maybe two two percent so the the cost of money is going up um we can have a conversation about this you know next year mill and overlay for the turtle creek area million dollar project basically but i think we need to have the conversation now about bonding now for and and doing projects maybe even moving them up into 23. i mean but if we can if we're going to bond like you said if we're going to bond and it's going and we're bonding 6 million a 1 even a one percent difference could make a pretty fairly hefty difference couldn't it oh yeah i mean so you know maybe we need to move north our morning view sunnybrook maybe those need to be 23 and we bond for the whole thing yeah i mean i it's roughly eight million to cover north our morning view and all the hunters crust yeah no if we're gonna do it then do it and do it sooner rather than later because i can't imagine it's going to get cheaper it's a drill bit yeah i think what's the drawback [Music] i was going to say i think the rationale would be to try to not have to bond for as much i mean 25 26 and 27 could be covered with almost just the the monthly levy for bonds right now so those could almost be pulled aside you know when done over those three years phased in different parts of hunter's press so to me maybe the question would be whether you'd want to move up any of the 2024 to 2023 you know the bond yeah right but then again i there's so much volatility right now with the interest rates in the bond market i couldn't tell you right now if the rates are gonna you know somehow moderate in 24 and be just as good you know right now there but then you could you can also so what can happen is if we could bond now for 23 projects and include all the 24 projects in them and if bond rates should go down i know you can re-finance in a couple of years uh most of ours are set up with like an eight-year call or something like that but we can ask ellers how that is change if you if you get the the call protection of the way of that then you're that's reflected in your race yeah okay i mean we can look at all that though just uh if i may add this globally right i'm the reason why i'm kind of smiling is because as these projects get bigger and bigger right our annual bond payment gets bigger and bigger and it has a levy impact you know just as a as a reference uh eight million dollar bond if we have a 20-year term uh we would likely have a a eight and a half to nine percent levy increase related to that that single project right and we don't have unless we use some of our so if we're bonding or if we're levying let's just say a million a a year for road construction and then we take let's say i don't know how much it would be how much a payment would be would it be around three hundred thousand for a six million dollar bond i mean that's a little like light because three fifty yeah three okay so maybe then you you levy 1.1 versus a million and you use three five to pay your bond that leaves you with seven five or you know something like that rather than rather than um levying a million plus the 350 you can kind of work that out and kind of gradually work it in too so you wouldn't have to add that eight percent all at once yeah you know what use the money we're already levying for the roads to pay the bond right because that would still leave us money to do other stuff yeah as well yeah and then you can add in uh look slowly add back up to that you can you can you what you'll run into is you'll have to really scale back your annual projects right from a million dollars a year yeah and then you'll have a conversation you know how often do you want to bond we don't have the luxury of having laddered debt where we have debt falling off every couple years or we will have in about five years we will yeah we will so and we can structure the bond payment so that we may be paying interest only for the first year or two you know and then we phase in the principal payments but there's ways to do it and maneuver it so you can limit the the levy impact but you know because it'd be great to do a big project right now because the interest rate is going to be a little bit lower but just knowing there's going to be you know some levy impact to that that i think you're all aware of so but we can look at that definitely i think we have a future work session conversation about just what we want to do if we want to if we want to really crank it up for 2023 and start working on that now is the time to have that conversation because we should really start on uh my 429 process would it even be too late for 23 no for for engineering no we would just need to get going if you look at some of the 2024 projects it has a survey component the reclamation the reconstruction and even on sunnybrook circle we would need to get survey data because of all the small utilities so that's that's the um that's the time frame that we want to we need to get that before we get plans started so we would need to get so here's the thing let's just say that the council were to authorize that okay move forward with plans specifications whatever you need to do for that even if we didn't do the project in 23 those plans and specifications are still good for 24. correct you would and so you know and depending on the time frame too it could just be gathering the survey data and not even going into planned production yeah but either way we're going to need that engineering services anyway so okay no that's good that's good in input right because it kind of changes up the plan for a bit so what what i think the interest rates are kind of driving that and we can do a comparison of what they project and what what we would currently get and just you know what does that do with our total amount of money that we would have to pay or what our what our annual bond payment would be so we could look at that would you bring that back at the june 6 would ellers come at the june 6th meeting then i don't think they would need to come for that i think that they could just provide us that information pretty high level i sent him like what our did you know okay now what do you project a year from now and they could probably run some pro forma stuff first thing out okay well that scenario stuff make sure that we get that information june 6 and then also bring back a resolution to authorize to move forward with some of these things that we need to do for the 24 roads if we want to move them into 23. yeah yeah has there been any update on the king's point yeah i've got to know fred green quite well and gary and i are going to go out there for a little i don't know if they're going to have a little barbecue i think it's june 14th we're going to be out there maybe yeah so fred is kind of taking the lead in that neighborhood to gather information i know he's reached out to some council members but then he's come in and gary and i are going to go out there on the 14th to kind of talk to the neighborhood a little bit about what that means um talk about what we think the estimated cost would be what our current assessment policy is you know those numbers matt don't don't match up uh very well you know we're probably looking at a pretty significant assessment because it's a costly project with only i think 23 homes on it so you know just kind of laying it all out there and there he's fully aware of uh you know some uh decisions city council has made in the past about assessments and you know i don't there isn't an official cap but you know he's he's knows that knows what what's been done in the past so in the past am i wrong it has so i from what i gathered is uh when they did the kings point road up to the where it's bad now they had the option and they said no right it's too expensive there's been some turnover in the houses there's been a lot of turnover yeah so um yeah now that that road gary and i went on a drive and it's pretty it was pretty bad it's one of the i think it's worth the north arm is so what i you know i'm giving you know fred a little bit of insight i said strategically we would have to bond for that because you thought it was over a million oh it's well over that probably two oh wow with what you would extend at that time you might like send water up to the end of it then you must get that out of the way and have services put out and then you'd also extend your natural gas up that way but that wouldn't be on our dime that would be on ours but the water you know would still come out of the water from but right we'd be looking you'd be foolish not to have that right exactly yeah we should add that road to this list as well all right um so no no it definitely needs um good point no kathleen you're right he takes your phone call that says all these roads why did this one get left that's horrible like i mean if they're aware of the cost yeah yeah i mean i guess my thought on all of this is okay we're putting aside a million dollars a year for rose right well let's bond get a bunch of these done and then we don't have you know we have the money we're doing the projects and then we have less to spend in you know certain years because they're done now right and then again money to pay the bond without the finance right that's exactly right no it i mean it's an approach i have no idea what the actual need is right that's kind of one of the interesting outcomes of this exercise is what's the need you know immediate need is 20 million dollars right it'll be some astronomical number i'm just warning you it will be that's and uh you know then you have to pick you know what do we have available and how do you prioritize right is it kind of what it comes down to but yeah i don't know if there's i don't gary's got the best knowledge as far as what the worst road in town is king's point road is the worst one i've seen ranks up there yeah i think kings point in north arm so with that um we're kind of nearing we need to take a little bit of a break um but with that so i think we have we're going to consider adding possibly adding king's point then to this list for 20 23 possibly maybe um we're going to talk about bonding and we're going to talk about um oh and then we need um council direction on whether we want to do um why don't wsb why don't you bring that proposal back to our next meeting also on the 6th and then we can discuss it more at the regular meeting the the proposal for the survey or the the estimated cost of this exercise for the if directed by city uh council staff will solicit a proposal described kind of the gis exercises why don't you bring that back at the regular meeting with a proposal and then we can discuss it at that meeting along with all the other things that we're going to be discussing regarding the roads yeah all right does that mean meeting need to start at five well i think i think we should okay let me ask this are we going to discuss this at the work session and then bring it back to the council meeting or just discuss it at the council meeting roads i think yeah it's kind of the revamping of the schedule kind of based on the notes i've taken tonight work session for sure the the gis component of kind of gathering the data communicating the data that'll be on the regular meeting because that that's a um professional service agreement it is and then you know likely what i anticipate this spilling over is into the strategic planning session that we have on this 20 20 right that'll be a big part of that too and we can have some really good conversations we have a little bit more time the only thing the only thing we don't have a lot of time on is if we're going to add these roads to the 23 project we want to get going on the engineering end and all of the work that needs to be done in order to get that bid out in january so that's i know we're a little bit behind the eight ball already because we normally start this like in april so i want to see i would like to see a proposal for services then and and if you want to break it out i don't know but we need to get going on this okay so staff figure it out bring it back all right do we want to start out five then yeah yeah you might want to yeah yeah and if you want to put it all on the work session that's fine and then we'll just have to make sure we add it to the regular um meeting agenda or it can be on there already yeah okay yes so the next work session will be come study roads okay all right sounds good um we need to take a quick break ten minute break is there a motion to adjourn thank you kathleen is there a second thank you ann all those in favor signify with i i motion passes 5-0 we are adjourned and we'll be back in 10 minutes 00:00:04.789 --> 00:00:08.310 align:start position:0% 00:00:08.310 --> 00:00:10.230 align:start position:0% 00:00:10.230 --> 00:00:12.549 align:start position:0% 00:00:12.549 --> 00:00:14.950 align:start position:0% 00:00:14.950 --> 00:00:17.750 align:start position:0% 00:00:17.750 --> 00:00:20.870 align:start position:0% 00:00:20.870 --> 00:00:23.349 align:start position:0% 00:00:23.349 --> 00:00:25.670 align:start position:0% 00:00:25.670 --> 00:00:28.630 align:start position:0% 00:00:28.630 --> 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