tv Documentary RT December 5, 2013 4:29am-5:01am EST
thing last then the resignation of the president himself the opposition is being a bit excessive in its demands. well as of the moment we have heard some words not too many wars and we have seen no actions at all so not a single police officer has been punished for it after this bloody saturday we have not seen the minister of internal affairs in the parliament he was afraid to come to see the m.p.'s we have not seen a single senior officer stepping down so actually people are so angry as of the moment because in the parliament they expected that those who were responsible for this bloody massacre here in the on on my done would be punished that would be the first step to get closer to justice and we see we also know actions so it's seen i think for most of the people here and i was absolutely clear that the but the president's party of regions which did not vote. against the government share this
responsibility with the police officers so everyone stood here and understands that it's clearly it was clearly the president of ukraine who gave the orders and who have to be who has to be responsible for what happens here now mr shift chunk of the word revolution is back in use in key of these days and one thing that we learned from the arab revolutions over the past couple of years is that you know bloodshed can start with a couple of broken ribs and a few concussions but it can very quickly degenerate into people actually being killed on the streets and compared to what we saw in egypt or syria thankfully the protests in the ukraine and even the police efforts to disperse that process while all of that were relatively civilized do you think the worst is now over or have you any concerns that if those rallies continued that they could be real blood being spilled in care. well there is one think we should makes the events in kiev
these days very different from the arab revolutions and it's about the peaceful. brought to us every ten or fifteen minutes every speaker who is on this station says to the to the people we're a peaceful gathering of citizens we're not going to attack government buildings and if you see anyone who who calls you to go and attack the presence of mr nation or a different building that's someone who wants this revolution to be stopped so i think it's this is what makes this ukrainian process very different from when the revolutions which we saw in the middle east what makes this event similar to the arab it's the anger that people have and it's the government which absolutely does not respond to what the citizens demanded of them well mr somebody who covered the arab revolutions extensively i can tell you that many of those revolutions started with peaceful rallies but from the very beginning there were some people some provocateurs within the crowd and what we now are hearing even from western media
is that there are people in key of who have been hurling rocks at the police people who have been using having machinery such as an excavator on the streets all of cave and there have been some of times to storm government buildings still count the opposition now guaranteed that people who have gathered behind your back will indeed abide by the law that the process will be carried out in peaceful fashion i think i think you're referred to one specific episode which happened on sunday a couple of blocks away from this place next to the presence of mr nation so as of the moment it's absolutely clear that it was a broke a sion which was set up was the sort of this first of all there were there were no no one there were no protesters who were brought there by their position there was a small group of radical there was a small radical group which had nothing to do with the peaceful protests on the
done second we know that most of them had the chance to go to to stay safe on the both sides of the police wall when. third that we went to the escalator and many people many people could see this this huge excavator right in the center right next to the presence of mr think not a single car could enter downtown but there was this excoriates safely waiting for this crowd of radicals next to the presence of mr h. and there was a pile of stones well prepared for that so i think their position was really something really good and important when we went there and pull some people out of there and so that's the one think about what we saw here on sunday about eight hundred thousand people peacefully standing on them i don't think the crowd of that size. it successfully states peacefully here and if you if you go to the dancers now you see a very peaceful crowd of people to be fair to the president in a call which he himself can down the use of force by the police he called it
excessive and he also called on the opposition to abide by the law and abide by the democratic procedures that exist in any democratic country i want to play a sound bite from what he said and have you comment on that let's listen to what he had to say. if we want european standards we must do everything within the framework of the law and this is the principle of democracy. elections are coming the people will decide to have originated. in the boot so essentially what he's saying is that if you want to be democratic just be democratic doesn't he have a point he's a century asking you to either way till next elections or wait until you have enough seats in the parliament to impeach him but as of as of now you don't have either of these opportunities. well we have heard
a lot of words from mr and a caution this is the we have seen no actions i'm not sure you would be the best the best advocate for him but this man has done. this blood a set of the to punish those responsible once again not a single police officer was fired four days after after the events the minister internal affairs is hiding from the press and is hiding from the public the prime minister came to the to the parliament and and was there enough to to say that person is fine and what was the country so once again president and of course has done nothing and i think from for every you create in substance to clear that he is completely the person responsible for this crisis that the country is is in and once again of a goal is a legitimate change of power i think no one here wants a civil war no one here wants a coup that we want a legitimate change of power if unocal which feels confident enough if he wants this gone through to get out of the crisis let's do an early presidential election but isn't it also the case that the opposition at this point doesn't have enough
seats in the parliament tuesday's vote no confidence vote in the cabinet is one proof of that and on the top of that he simply don't know how many people feel the same sentiment that is expressed on my dime these days so why not wait just a year to see and to allow these you know legal procedure democratic procedure to take hold why do you why are you calling for a preliminary election for early elections when certainly the full scope of your democratic procedure is haven't hasn't been exhausted by now. well i think we can start and academical discussion on whether people who clearly see that something terrible is happening to their country should wait for the next presidential or whatever election but i think it's not really worth what we need to discuss it as of the moment look look what you can see behind my back as of the
moment you can see congress of thousands of people staying here it's the eleventh day of this was it brought us as of the moment to be. our industries around the country and this think what we're what we're witnessing is an irreversible change it's an irreversible shift here in this country but mr this is exactly my point st actions may provide for very dramatic footage but it's not an accurate measure of democratic aspirations to imagine democratic aspirations and whether ukrainian people want what you what you're calling for you need to have elections but you have only here on til the next election so why not wait. i think there are clear democratic tools which could help us find their way out of this political process first of all if we have the prosecutor general office which is capable of investigations that will tell us if we have responsible police officers who could quit their jobs that will help if we have a responsible government which can fire those officers who did this great things
that will help finally if we're talking about the parliament the parliament could also do its part of the job but it's refused to do so today but once again every day that we don't know what to do in this in terms of procedures we get into a more dangerous situation mr tank i heard some commentators compare the current events and key if to the or interrelation a couple of years ago and the most notable outcome of that revolution was of course the so-called progeny craddick forces with viktor yuschenko and yulia tymoshenko and get the ukrainian people. after their coming to power. you know fairly quickly had a period of disenchantment and they were voted out of power so if the opposition manages to secure power once again what do you think should be done differently this time around to make sure that people's aspirations are indeed mad. well there is a lot of disappointment in petitions to all kinds here and there is some disappoint
in pro-democratic forces as well but once again if you think about the last parliamentary election these three barges we share in opposition got majority of the vote votes in departed elections at the last presidential election unit tymoshenko lost and of course only three percent so we can say that it remains as a very competitive country in terms of politics and as of the moment is the polls clearly show that people people are not tebow is what's happening in the country even before these events on the air around sixteen percent of the population support it what did the what you did his approval ratings went to historical low lowest even in the east of the country so i think it has as of the moment vast majority of ukrainians clearly want changes ok mr shanker we have to take a short break now but when we come back in the western media accounts ukraine often comes across as more than they cinderella caught between the well meaning european fairy and the exploitive russian stepmother is
a reality indeed so black and wide that's coming out in a few moments on well the part. this is the place that has been consecrated to god for almost a thousand of years people came here twenty some years ago to reestablish the mastic wife on the silence. and people feel the love of christ all working. people say you can catch come when something happens on this island that makes them return to it again and again they say the below saves them. join me james brown on a journey for the soul. only on a t.
. right to see. first street. and i would think you're. on our reporters would. be. delivered to our church is on its epic journey to such. one hundred and twenty three days. through to some other two cities of russia. really fourteen thousand people or sixty thousand killings. in a record setting trip by land air sea and others face. olympic torch relay. on r t v dot com.
welcome back to worlds apart a rear discussing ukraine struggle for democracy and a better future rebounder a shift a prominent ukrainian journalist and politician mr shift russia has been accused of intimidating his crazy man you know call each personally into submission and forcing ukraine to turn its back on to a democratic dream why do you thing moscow is being so mean to follow your craniums report. well i think that rush. the criminal leaders have been very pragmatically
they do want to keep ukraine close they do want to see ukraine as part of the customs union so i think the them with evasion is very clear for me but i don't really think that is going to change a lot of things here in the recreant because the west majority of ukrainians do want to create to go to go to the closer ties with the european union and sooner or later it was this president who was a different president i think will face the clear perspective of the association with europe now i heard your interview on b.b.c. radio the other day and he sat there quote just a couple of weeks we thought we were about to become one of the european nations and now we find ourselves under newly formed dictatorship in eastern europe something that you would expect in belarus or sometimes in russia now i'm not going to even argue with you whether russia constitutes a dictatorship i think that's a very far fetched statement but. don't you think that democracy is
a bit too complicated than which trade union or reach. agreement if you decide to align yourself with don't you think that you give too little credit to your country of forty five million people by reducing it to a simple or maybe a complicated but a single decision like that. i think you are perfectly right with that and if you listen to most of the speeches here on the under my done especially in the very first of the of the done it was really of. the european values and the rippin practices if we're talking about this decision agreement is about so two hundred of pages which do not mean changes right away but for many years both the korean government and the opposition have been convinced in the ukrainians that this decision agreement will be a solution to many problems fighting corruption the rule of law democracy and human rights efficient economy prosperity all those things. could be much easier to
reach with this decision agreement that's what was the government and the opposition have been saying for quite a long time so no with this with this turn towards stores russia did not just throw away this decision agreement she stalled peace this wonderful dream for most of the ukrainians most of them really believed the believed that we begin to build something of what we've never had here a successful democratic country but mr shand i know that you have a very long track record of being an advocate of human rights and speaking for media freedoms in your country and i'm sure you know that building democracy takes years and it is not after you neighbor is a figure crane whether it is russia or the european union but rather to the ukrainian people so what bob's them even with you know annoyed graham and signed with the european union what really stops them from building all those liberties
within that own borders or if we're talking about the his citizens look at the polls clearly show the majority of the ukraine is doing to ukraine to sign this situation agreement even before the recent events this number was more than sixty percent only about thirty percent wanted to create to join the customs union so the proportion is clearly in where of the union i think the idea of building a successful ukraine was all join in no matter where they sleep or opinion of the customs union is sometimes debated here in ukraine but i think it's absolutely gorgeous for most of the people. who fall of the situation in the economy and in geopolitics that it could be much easier in a close association with the european union. ok i would like to come back to this issue of russia suppose it intimidation the kremlin's position has been that this this dispute is all about economy it and that russia believes it's. economic
interests will suffer if european goods will start sliding into europe into ukraine rather and later into russia tax free i wonder if you think that russia could have protected its economic interests in some other way without apply i'm due process onto your crane was there any other way to go around business here. i find some of the economic arguments that you mention quite artificial and not that profound i think many people in ukraine feel that this pressure was not just about the economy it was pretty much about geopolitics and pretty much do all as you absolutely mr should think about what i mean let me stay on they own the question do you believe that russia is good in its own right to protect its economy if it believes that this economy its market is being threatened by the possibility
of fewer european good coming into ukraine and later on. i think that the russia perfectly has the right to act according to its national interests as long as it does not violate the international arrangements. russia has made because first of all we have the framework of the a w t or world trade organization and there were some clear big issues that russia took and including that if there were some problems with the partners inside of w two or there are some instruments to solve that then if you remember in ukraine when ukraine was giving away its nuclear arms there was a special treaty and russia was part of that which clearly said that russia is never going to use economic pressure and some other kinds of pressure to influence their transposition so many people in ukraine clearly please see that russia russia went into the zone which was very close to elation ofis international obligations
but the. once again it's not it's not just legal framework i think it's much more about the way this pressure was put on the countries it was much more about the warden so i think many people here feel that it was a very hostile action towards ukraine well and what is it about the wording and the way this pressure was put on to ukraine because as far as fires kremlin is concerned it was very straightforward about what will happen if your crane indeed decides to sign this association agreement and to the list of documents that you mentioned earlier i want to add the free trade agreement between russia and ukraine that clearly stipulates that russia is within its own right to withdraw from the agreement if ukraine sides with signs any trade agreements with third parties so. when you say that russia violated some laws this is actually not substantiated at this point. but i think not to go into very closely
which i'm ready for but i think it's just part of the of the situation part of the problem i think that both in russia and in ukraine there were there were more than enough people who were happy to exaggerate this conflict and to use the situation for ukraine or into russian propaganda inside of the two countries so i think that clearly damage the relationship of the two countries if we want to think long term we should find a proper solution for corporation of ukraine associated with the european union and russia and then think it's in the long term russian interests to have a reliable predictable partner here and q well i think i would agree with you and one thing that russia and the european union definitely have in common is that they both want to have a prosperous and stable ukraine because if this crisis goes on all those people will go either you know ukrainian people will go either into russia or into the repeating union in search of jobs so i think neither russia nor the european union
would be interested in that what do you think would be a compromise that would satisfy all three parties involved. well first of all to all those in russia who can hear us if you look at this madame you should clearly realize that it's not against russia and it's not against their actions and it's not against running away from. seoul in internal ukrainian problems because people here want to want there have been future as as a good prosperous future for themselves so i think that. is very important of to find a legitimate solution here for ukraine but mr sharif junket there is one comparison go i am making rounds here in moscow and ukraine is being compared to a lady who on the one hand takes money from an older now and really a gentleman but wants to spend her time with you know. a handsome young man but sometimes you really have to choose i mean you cannot have both and it seems that
ukraine is what you are really saying is that ukraine wants to see the on the on two stools here it wants to have this free trade agreement with russia to reach gives the ukraine a lot of revenues but on the other hand it wants to associate itself both politically and economically with the european union don't you have to make your choices sometimes. absolutely you used quite to risk a comparison and if you use in that kind of amount of force i think you should clearly separate the present existing ukrainian authorities which have been negotiated in a very embarrassing way was both their opinion the russian and ukrainian nation and i think if you think if you if you look at the these people behind me there's pressure is very clear and you're absolutely right it's about a clear choice between deposed soviet world and between the between the european model of society and we perfectly in the senate we are talking about it's
corruption of the post soviet world and it's the rule of law for most of the contests of the european union is snake election of two human rights and civil liberties in the post told and it's a deep respect to human rights in the european union so yes you're absolutely right it's about the very clear choice and i think in these days this nation is really making it shows and i think there are there are many commentators now in moscow who believe that you know college has indeed shown himself as a very unpredictable and sometimes a very dangerous actor you know he spanned as you said so much time negotiating with the european union on the association agreement he made a u. turn very dramatic u. turn at the very last moment he managed to put europe and russia at their longer had but. it did do you really think that these portrayal of here on a college as as a russian market in the ukraine is really justified because this is the way this
has this argument this dispute has been portrayed in western media that russia really wants to keep you know college in kiev which many would argue is not in russia's best interests. well i think if you portray in the. brush and. brush. i think it would be to lose their rights the right way to understand him i think they're on the think what he really cares says of the man. and does his personal interests it's he is. in the interests of his family of both in terms of his political influence and in terms of the economy and of running a business in ukraine once again i think it's personally and holds the full responsibility of all of the political crisis here in ukraine that's the person who put the relationship between ukraine and russia into a very dangerous situation and that's the person who put the relationship between ukrainian people have been union into this wary of mass that we can see some of
this that's why going back to the beginning organization most of the ukrainians feel that this man should step down from his present position he's personally responsible for this mess that the country is at the moment while i miss the tank unfortunately as only time will tell whether this is going to happen but we are out of time right now i really appreciate your perspective and to our viewers if you like the show please join us again same place same time here on while the party. war is probably the most complex and difficult human activity.
that's. not. in the phenomenon of friendly fire probably extends back to the invention of gunpowder. to kill a bunch of people you know don't know what they're up there forever as there are in the u.s. people. right i'm writing. this son of a shoot my brother in the leg not intentional because it is because it was night times four in the morning even the best given the mesh shoulders. are going to make mistakes this is this whole idea of brotherhood and author and camaraderie in this sense it was in this context that has absolutely no place.
please syrian rebels a group of nuns from a christian ministry allegedly moving them to a nearby rebel controlled town there's the christian community is increasingly caught up in the raging by libs. i am ready to pick company keep forty seven and start shooting. when you look at the radical right wing groups that have hijacked the demonstrations in kiev is more european leaders throw their weight behind cry even protesting you cry. is humanitarian aid from the european union and all together these products make up around a third of all the stuff here. and a plague by unemployment and.