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tv   Hardball With Chris Matthews  MSNBC  December 27, 2011 5:00pm-6:00pm EST

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these ugly emotions and biases are part of the republican base. thanks for coming by today to share those thoughts. that does it for us. i'm matt miller in for dylan ratigan. up next, "hardball," right now. the battle for iowa. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. leading off tonight, newt's new law. what goes out must come back. newt gingrich may be getting a lot of mileage dumping on mitt romney's health plan as a socialist-inspired government takeover of health care, but it turns out newt praised romney's plan long before he buried it. in a newsletter five years ago, in fact, so, basically, newt is saying, pay no attention to what i said then, just hear me now. so what does go out does come
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back and what you said can be used against you. plus, ron paul with a fringe on top. you're hearing more and more about ron paul's fringe supporters and more about what he really thinks of gays and israel. meanwhile, on the under card, while no one was watching, rick santorum has been making a move. plus, it turns out it's not just the rich that get richer. so do those getting elected to congress. why has the personal net worth of the body gone up so much while everybody else has gone down. and this is the photo of elizabeth eckford trying to intracentral high school in little rock, arkansas, in 1957, after it was ordered to resegregate. but what most of us don't know is the fascinating story behind that picture and how she and the white girl screaming at her eventually became friends. we'll have that story for you later. and let me finish with why conservative republican voters in iowa can rally -- cannot rally around a champion to face obama. we start with newt gingrich and the explaining he needs to do. howard fineman is an msnbc
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political analyst and "the huffington post" media group editorial director, and jeff zeleny is with "the new york time times". he joins us from iowa. howard, you first. this problem with newt gingrich and his credibility. he's very versatile, he's a fantastic opportunist, he thinks on his feet, but he seems to think he's so much smarter and has a better memory than everyone else, or else a worse memory. how does he forget that he sold mitt romney's health care plan in massachusetts as a national wonder drug, basically, to the rest of the country? >> well, this is newt's problem, is he tries to be the outsider, attacking mitt romney. newt gingrich, revolutionary though he may have been in his daryl days in congress, was here for a long time, was a leader as a speaker, and spent a lot of time on "k" street working the inside game for the medical history. and there was a time at which, and maybe it's still true with many parts of that industry, that they like some of what mitt romney was proposing.
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lots of industry very much was able to live with what barack obama proposed. and newt gingrich was part of that. it's not that his memory is so good, it's that his memory is selective. he's very good at forgetting. very good at trying to play that attack dog outsider. but it's not working, especially when "the wall street journal" is on his tail, unearthing documents like this one. >> let's go with a general reporter today, back in 2006, not 100 years ago, five years ago, newt gingrich was in favor of the romney health care plan up in massachusetts. a newsletter for one of his groups called the center for health transformation put out a newt's notes memo. that's newt's notes memo, saying, quote, "the health bill that governor romney signed into law this month has tremendous potential to affect major change to the american health system. we agree entirely with governor romney and massachusetts legislators that our goal should be 100% insurance coverage for all americans. that's newt's statement back
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five years ago. now his spokesman told "the journal" that someone else penned that statement. and again this, that it wasn't an endorsement. well, jeff, you know, politicians are good at squirming out of things like greased pigs, but my question, is there enough grease to get newt away from what he said just five years ago, applauding romney on health care, and in a sense, encouraging it for the rest of the country. >> i think things are really adding up here for speaker gingrich. this is just one more thing on top of, you know, really a litany of rising questions that some conservatives have about him. but, he still has his core supporters in iowa. he still has people who say that, you know, i like him because he can debate president obama. they keep saying that. i'm not sure if voters realize that there's probably only going to be three presidential debates next fall in the general, and the campaign is certainly, or almost certainly not to hinge on debates alone, but i think that the toll is rising for him. he realizes this. if you watch the airwaves in
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iowa or listen to the radio, he is just being hammered. but it's not by mitt romney only, it's by ron paul. it's sort of from all sides. so i think this is one more thing that he is going to have a hard time explaining to voters. we saw this in the journal today. this is going to be an ad probably before, you know, in the next 24 hours, perhaps. and this is what iowa caucus voters are going to see as their final argument before they begin making up their minds. so he has a lot of ground to cover here, in trying to explain all this. but i'm not sure how well he'll do that. >> well, here's one way he's doing it. the super pac winning our future is releasing this ad in support again. rich, let's watch. >> the republican establishment wants to pick our candidate. when a principle conservative took the lead, they outspent newt gingrich 20 to 1, attacking him with falsehoods. conservatives need someone who's fought for us. newt balanced the federal budget, reformed welfare, cut taxes, and created 11 million
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new jobs. newt will take on radical judges and fight against abortion. don't let the liberal republican establishment pick our candidate. newt gingrich, winning our future is responsible for the content of this message. >> you know, howard, there's a lot of over-the-top language there, the language of desperation, i would say, objectively. when you start talking about radical liberal establishment, what's that? when you start talking about radical judges. it's almost over the top language being used in this ad, that sounds a lot like newt. >> i think jeff would agree with me that that's the kind of language that sometimes, not the heat of it, but the intent of it is the kind of language that can appeal to iowa caucusgoers. they take the caucuses very seriously. they respond to the message that somebody's trying to control it, somebody from the outside, so forth. it's the best and only card newt has to play right now. because, really, he's not competing with mitt romney for votes. he's not competing with ron paul for votes, for the most part.
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he's competing in the non-mitt, non-dr. paul primary, essentially among all the other conservatives. so that's an appeal, the best appeal, arguably, he can make to chose voters who are still undecided. >> let's take a look at the trend lines of the iowa polling of the top three since november 1st. first, mitt romney in the purple. when you add the yellow line, you can see his recent rise. the most dramatic thing is when you see gingrich's green line and his precipitous drop over the past several days. he just keeps dropping. jeff, you're out there in the field. do you sense that, that he's had a drop for a while now? >> i do sense that. and when you see an ad like this, i mean, it certainly is a good response, or at least some response, but it's about 2 1/2 weeks too late. he's being hit out here, and across the country, without any backup. and you know, gingrich has been responding, you know, by complaining about these negative attacks. well, you sort of have to fight
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the war on the same battleground here. and that's on television. so now he's only finally doing this. but if you talk to voters, i mean, they have liked newt gingrich's debate performances. they've liked a lot of what he's said. but there's been so much more information out there on him now than there was just two weeks ago. it's incredible. so i think that, you know, what he doesn't have here is a ground organization to sort of support him and to get his back up. if he is to do well in the iowa caucuses, it's going to throw out all of the things that howard and i and some other people and you, chris, know so well, of how these caucuses have usually worked through organizations. if he does well, it's just going to be this organic thing coming out. and that's pretty hard to believe, that that's going to happen. >> well, one way you get rid of the past is to smother with the present, to trump it with the present. we all know that. people do have an advantage. if they can get on the television set in live performances, that's what people tend to judge more than old tapes. howard, can he get that live bug
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up next to him and show himself between now and next tuesday in a way that will dramatize him rather than his past? >> no, it's awfully hard, as jeff said. and one of the reasons is, if you put up an ad accusing other people of falsehoods, you need to explain, you need to have the time, the money, and the space to explain what those falsehoods are. you have to nail your critics. you have to nail your foes to the wall with their lies. that's the way you have to play the game. you can't just throw up your hands and appeal to the ref, which is sort of what newt's doing hear, with all the time -- that's all the time and money he has. >> let's take a look right now at this whole problem out there. jeff, i have a theory about this. i'm going to bring it up at the end of the show and try it on you and howard. you first. it seems to me that the voters of iowa, the republicans out there really want three things out there. they want someone who is very good on small government, and ron paul meets the bill there, in spades. then they want someone who has the religious zeal against things like abortion right and gay and same-sex and that kind of thing, the modernity,
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basically. then they want a real hawk, someone who's really going to turn the tables from this globalism of obama and turn it back to the old chauvinism of w. and do they have anybody that meets the bill in all three cases and that could also win? >> no, they have no one who meets the bill in all three cases. which is why you hear, i was out with senator rick santorum earlier, and he was really driving the case hard against ron paul, urging iowa republicans to think seriously his foreign policy plans. so you have all these sort of cross-currents going on, all these people fires different arrows at each other. and the person who may come up the strongest in that is mitt romney. you hear a lot of republicans who say, you know what, i guess that it is almost time to make our pick here. he may not be the top in either of the three categories, but adding up all the qualities together, he looks better than a lot of people. i've heard republicans two weeks ago were not for romney, but now
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they say, okay. >> can you appeal to iowans this time and say, here's your chance? here's a romney strategy, putting this out, talking to "new york" magazine's john heilemann. this is an amazing quote. i think it's a problem for them already. "the dynamics couldn't be better for us. i don't see any scenario where we're not the nominee." i mean, that's a horrendously over-the-top claim at this point. your thoughts? >> big, big, big mistake. it may not cost them, who knows. the problem that the others have here is that -- to put it simply, there's no ronald reagan. ronald reagan, chris, was able to do -- to square the circle or unite those three forces that you talked about. he could be the small government guy. he could be the guy that questioned modernity, as you put it. he was the hawk. he used anti-communism, he used his own history, he used his own personality, his own organization to bundle all those things together. all those pieces have fallen apart, and there's one candidate
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or more for each. in that situation, mitt romney can drive right through, perhaps, because he's a little bit -- he's not any of them. he doesn't unite them all, but he isn't trapped or destroyed by any one of them. he's picking his way right through the middle. and that may be, in an odd way, iowa's gift to him by tuesday night. >> come in second in every category. anyway, thank you, howard fineman and jeff zeleny. great having you on the show. coming up, what ron paul really thinks about two subjects. we're going to pick out two, because they're the most glaring, gays, gay rights, gay people, and israelis as well. what he thinks about the state of israel. it's pretty strong stuff, beyond what most people think in an extreme way, i'd argue. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. my patients, you want to hear you've done a good job. that's why i recommend a rinse like crest pro-health multi-protection. it helps you get a better dental check-up. so be ready for your next dental check-up. try any crest pro-health rinse.
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welcome back to "hardball." rick santorum, the republican candidate who didn't have his 15 minutes of fame, like most of the gop field had before flaming out, might be having his moment right now. in the way santorum cleverly frames the race, he's in a contest with perry and bachmann for what he calls the conservative vote. can santorum be the sleeper in this race? and a former ron paul staffer says, if you believe him, that paul believes israel shouldn't exist, and that the united states had no business getting involved fighting hitler in world war ii. needless to say the paul campaign says he's a disgruntled former staffer who was fired. while aaron mcpike is covering
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the 2012 gop race for real clear politics and steve kornacki is with let's go to this interesting case of rick santorum. i have always believed that when you're in a crunch, erin, and you don't know what you're doing, you go back to basics. if you're a religious conservative, don't get your fingers dirty in this campaign. don't hold your nose. vote for somebody whose values you completely buy into it, and you'll always be comfortable for your vote, even if you don't pick a president. is that what's working for santorum, if anything is? >> he thinks that it is, but his poll numbers haven't budged all that much. he's starting to be tied with bachmann and perry, but the only two ads he has out in iowa are about him and social values and his record on social issues. and that's all he's talking about. but what is his economic message? this is an economic election, and that's not what he's talking about. it's going to be really hard for him to win iowa when everyone else is talking about the
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economy. >> well, and rick santorum says iowa voters know he's the choice for christian evangelicals. let's watch. ♪ >> well, besides being a great family man, and that he is, rick santorum is also a politician, believe it or not. and he breaks down the iowa race in a way that makes him look pretty good. he says there's three separate contests going on, and he says there's just one primary that he's interested in winning, which is conveniently the one he can win. let's listen. >> there's really three primaries going on here. there's the libertarian primary, which ron paul is going to win, and then you've got the moderate primary, which gingrich and romney are scrumming for. and then you've got three folks who are running as strong
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conservatives. and you know, i think if we win that primary, we're in very good shape, as the non-newt/romney. >> well, the three people running as strong conservatives that he's talking about are himself, rick perry, and michele bachmann. real clear politics lays out the state of play in this conservative primary. santorum wants to win. since december 1st, after his dismal debate performance that already dropped him out of the lead, rick perry in the blue line has been on a steady climb. see it? from 6% up to 12%. doubling. michele bachmann's trend line, however, which is black, has been fairly flat throughout december, landing at 8.7% today. and rick santorum there in the orange line, who's been to all 99 iowa counties so far has also been rising steadily. he started at 4. he's modestly up to about or almost 8. let me go to steve kornacki on this from salon. it seems to me he has a shot of winning this very narrowly in a rural match with the other two
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conservatives, perry and bachmann. >> he has a chance of winning it, but does he win it in a way that makes him a player beyond iowa. >> can he get beyond third place? >> there's third place where he beats him out with 13% of the vote and romney wins a state with 27. i don't think that's really worthwhile. but then there's the question of, if you can add together bachmann, perry, santorum, and a little bit of newt, you put those all together, you're at the 35% that mike huckabee managed to get in 2008. that's when 62% of the turnout in 2008 were evangelical questions. the problem of evangelical christians have had in iowa this time is they haven't found that one candidate. >> isn't that what santorum is hoping to do? >> sure. but look at the competition he's got. michele bachmann with the home-schooling, with her christian credentials. >> is she a home-schooler too? are they all home-schoolers out there? >> i think two of the three are. >> erin, i've been following republican politics for a long time, and i've never seen that you've got a party so culturally conservative, you've got a fight going on over who's the true
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home-schooler. i mean, this is getting back to basics here. >> well, that's what mike huckabee did in 2008, right? and that worked for him. michele bachmann has been pushing that message for a long time, and it worked for her over the summer, but suddenly her support dissipated. so rick perry's not really talking to the home schoolers, but he's talking about his values and going to church and his own, his own faith, and how he came to god in his 20s. so they're all going for the religious aspect here of it. >> let's take a look at this other interesting case. ron paul may win this whole thing, i don't know. it's really up in the air. if ron paul wins, it will be because people ignore some of the stuff about him. this stuff is coming out from his former staffer, who's been described by his loyal staffers as disgruntled, as being fired. they do all the things to take the truth out of the guy, right? now, the question is, he says things like -- ron paul doesn't just have problems with israeli foreign policy or the right wing government in place over there now, he, according to the former staffer, doesn't believe in the
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state of israel. he believes the arabs should get that land. that's pretty strong stuff, even for libertarians. your thought on that, steve? >> this represents fundamentally what ron paul's problems are in the republican party. this is a hawkish party, especially with regard to the middle east. and the parallel i keep thinking about with ron paul is pat buchanan. the last person on the republican side that really kind of broke through in the republican primaries was buchanan. and i interviewed buchanan last week about the parallel, and he said he sees it. he says he sees it happening with ron paul, what happened to him -- >> he, pat, has never come out to remove the state of israel -- >> no, but i can't think of one who was more hostile to pat buchanan than him on the national stage. he said, i nearly won iowa, and the party was terrified and they went to war with me in south carolina. >> my thinking is, if ron paul wins, erin, the message on the national media afterwards will be, small government conservatism wins a round in iowa, even though it may not
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matter nationwide, the people out there are so much against government, they're willing to go with a guy as libertarian as barry goldwater ever hoped to be. >> well, right, but it's ron paul's legions of supporters that we're talking about right now. you don't really often meet undecided voters in iowa who are considering ron paul. >> i see. >> so it's a really -- you know, so, what -- we don't know how he's going to do in new hampshire yet or south carolina. he's really been focusing here. so i don't know that we can take that away there him. >> describe him, erin. what kind of people do you see when you meet, who are ron paul? are they young college libertarians, like we were? people that really believe in individualism? >> they are. you meet a lot of college kids who are always coming out to his events, time and time again. but i'll tell you this, chris. we get the nastiest hate mail from ron paul supporters than i've ever gotten before for anything that you could possibly write. they're very dedicated. they will always comment. and if there's something that you think that you're doing wrong in your coverage of ron paul, they will let you know.
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>> but the other side of it is, let me go back to my formulation. you both can bash it down. it's equal opportunity here. i think when you're in a turmoil of a lot of tainted candidates. romney's a bit of a big government guy, let's face it. he was national health care writ large in massachusetts. so you look for something clean. you go in that voting booth and vote for somebody you truly believe in like ron paul, an absolute libertarian, and rick santorum, an absolute christian conservative, and you can walk out and say, don't blame me. >> yeah. >> is there some of that out there or am i just imagining it? >> no, and we've seen that before on the republican side. in the iowa caucuses, the most famous story was pat robertson in 1988 beating a sitting vice president, george washington sr., because that conservative base couldn't stomach the old yanky republican bush, and they would rather vote for pat robertson. buchanan nearly won it in '96. buchanan won new hampshire. at the end of the day, the party elites take control of the process and get their guy
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through. >> so it could clearly be an anti-establishment response out there. >> particularly in a state like iowa, i would think. >> your view, erin? could the anti-establishment candidates like santorum and ron paul be the stars on election night -- or caucus night? >> maybe so, but here's the other thing. neither ron paul nor rick s santorum really truly want to be president. i've talked to both of these guys, and rick santorum told me a year and a half, he was only going to run because he wanted to move the field to the right. and i asked ron paul a week ago if he actually really wanted to be president, and he said sure. they are both message candidates. >> erin, this is news. i've not heard this before. admissions by candidates that they don't want to win. i'm serious. >> not in so many words, but that's what they're saying. they're wanting to move the field to the right, and ron paul has the message. and when i asked him, he just said, sure. and i said, well, why do you want to be president? and he just said, answer should
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be obvious. it's a silly question. he said that a couple of times, but, chris, remember, in 1979, ted kennedy couldn't answer. >> what's your hunch? do you think ron paul based on those flippant answers, almost fatalistic answers that he may be planning for a third party if he doesn't come out of this thing on top? which he probably won't. >> he very well may. he almost owes it to his supporters who have been there for him for so long to come that message go, through, through the general election. >> steve? he's not running in a primary for the house again. >> if he cares about his son's future in the republican party, the senator from kentucky, he's got to be very careful if he's the guy that cost him the white house in 2012. >> hostage to fate. erin, great having you on. thank you, steve, as always. up next, newt defends his campaign by invoking the japanese attack on pearl harbor. this guy this is big. he also thinks big victim, him. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc.
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back to "hardball." now for the sideshow. first up, photo crasher. the president and first lady spent some of christmas day hanging with military families at a marine corps base in hawaii. of course, the cameras all over them. things went slightly awry in this picture as the president took over the job of baby handler. let's see what got the young admirer's attention. >> someone's got to make noise over there. he saw that big nose and he's like, man, i want some of that nose. i want some of that nose. >> handled it like a pro. the boy's mom later said she was mortified. next up, cause for alarm. the gingrich campaign was embarrassed and rightly so for
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failing to qualify for the primary ballot in virginia. that's newt's home state. where he actually lives. so how did team gingrich react? here's how. newt's campaign manager or director put out this on the campaign's facebook. "newt and i agreed that the analogy is december, 1941. we have experienced an unexpected setback, but we will regroup and refocus with increased determination, commitment, and positive action. throughout the next months, there will be ups and down, there will be successes and failures, there will be easy factories and difficult days, uh be in the end we will stand victorio victorious." so it's pearl harbor and the japanese here are who? i get it. newt's a victim of an infamous attack on his campaign. well, today mitt romney said that newt's failure in virginia is less pearl harbor than it is, quote, liucille ball at the chocolate factory. you do remember that episode, as i do, where lucy is totally unable to keep up with that darn conveyor belt.
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>> i think we're fighting a losing game! [ laughter ] >> well, i didn't know mitt had it in him. things started out okay for lucy, but went south quickly. we're now in the final stretch of the days leading to the iowa caucus, so is it time to go negative? well, take mitt romney. his campaign has spent $402,000 on campaign ads in iowa, but not one of them slanting negative. but then there's restore our future wab pr, a pro-romney sup pac that spent $150,000 on ads in iowa, with 100% of them slanting negative. mitt romney hasn't dropped any funds on negative ads himself, but he also hasn't come close to the support romney's getting from super pacs. so the romney. camp takes the cake tonight in this one, leaving 100% of his
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negative ads to his super pac. that's tonight's big number. as the gangster mickey cohn once said, if you have a dog, you don't have to bark. up next, how come the members of congress are getting richer and richer while everyone else is not? you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. what's going on? we ordered a gift online and we really need to do something with it... i'm just not sure what... what is it? oh just return it. returning gifts is easier than ever with priority mail flat rate boxes from the postal service. if it fits, it ships anywhere in the country for a low flat rate. plus i can pick it up for free. perfect because we have to get that outta this house. c'mon, it's not that... gahh, oh yeah that's gotta go... priority mail flat rate shipping starts at just $4.95. only from the postal service. a simpler way to ship and return.
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i'm brian shactman with your cnbc market wrap. the dow jones industrials down two points at the close. the s&p closed up marginally, and the nasdaq picked up six points. a particularly tough day for sears, which took a major stock hit amid a business mall holiday sales. and news that it plans to close up to 120 sears and kmart stores. but the big picture, looking up for retailers. the consumer confidence index jumping to an eight-month high, indicating shoppers are feeling
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better about spending. the bump much better than expected. the federal reserve says banks are finally loosening the pursestrings, including lending in particular to small businesses. some bad news, though, for anyone trying to sell a house. new numbers show single family home sales plunging more than expected in october, raising doubts that the housing market will rebound anytime soon. now, people not spending much to buy, but they are to rent. one morgan stanley analyst dubbing 2012 will be the year of the landlord as would-be sellers found better returns renting inside. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." there's at least one segment of the population that doesn't seem to be suffering in rough economic times. members of congress. in the past 2 1/2 decades, the median net worth of a member of
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the house of representatives more than doubled according to analysis by "the washington post." that means wealth areas people are being elected. that's an incredible figure, by the way, given the fact that for the average american family that have seen their net worth actually decrease. well, nearly half of all members of congress are millionaires right now, technically, at least. just between 2004 and 2010, the average net worth of members of congress rose 15%. well, according to "the new york times," the gap between members of congress and the rest of the population is growing, but what's behind it? that's the big question. and what does it mean in terms of how our leaders represent us? ari melber is an msnbc contributor and a correspondent for "the nation" magazine. chris frates is a correspondent for the "national journal." chris, thank you, and ari, thank. you know, i think it's important to talk about. these aren't guys and women making money on the job. it's not selling influence, apparently. what we're talking about is the development we've all seen. wealthy people, because they have capital and the ability to not have to show up to work for years at a time, and incredible leverage with other rich people,
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because rich people know rich people, that they can run for office with impunity and take chances on losing. they can come back year after year, until they finally win. >> yeah, i think that's exactly right, chris. politics is about what you have, what you need, and what you know, just like you said. so what we see with the explosion of the price of campaigns is that you either have to have a lot going in, you can be a self-funder, or you need a lot, which means that the people who may not be billionaires, they may not be mike bloomberg, the people who have high net worth and know a lot of people, their social graph is rich and it's a lot easier to raise this money. because we've talked a lot about the grassroots, small donor revolution, but that doesn't help you. >> george mcgovern, who was teaching at the university of south carolina, or gale mcgee, another professor, the day when a good political science or history professor, who didn't even have a law degree, could actually become a senator are over. >> i think that's right. and i think what you see, you basically have to know a ton of rich people at the start. which means it's not just about getting a name or going on tv or
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any of the things we think about as politicking, it's actually just having a very wealthy social graph. >> "the washington post" reported today between 1984 and 2009, the median net worth for a member of congress more than doubled. those numbers did not include home equity. for the average american family in that same period, their net worth actually declined. we have a growing difference between the kinds of people who we're electing and the people who are doing the electing. your thought on the implications, chris? >> i think ari's certainly right here, chris, that there is this idea that you need more money and more connections to run for office because of the price of the office. and certainly, that could be a backlash for many members of congress, you know, the occupy wall street guys, who are protesting the 1 percenters may not understand that most of congress is part of that group of 1 percenters. but i'm also reminded of a debate that i saw back in 2004 between ken salazar and pete coors. pete coors of coors beer, ken
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salazar, now the interior secretary, it was the 2004 senate race in colorado. and it was a debate between these two guys. and salazar is trying to make this point that, you know, pete coors is not one of us. he's not a farmer from the san louis valley like he was, who didn't have lights in his house until 1979. he says, you know, who here is rich? and hardly anybody in the audience raises their hands. pete coors turns to the audience and says, who here would like to be rich? and almost everybody raised their hands. so i think when you look at the population, you look at the voters, they're not always going to be folks who are going to hold it against a candidate because they are rich, because they are aspiring also to be rich. i put out the question, what does this mean for our democracy to the folks on twitter who follow me. and one person, c.j. barrett 76 said, the founding fathers who were rich guys who put it on the line to sign the declaration of independence, so it's not so
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much whether or not they have worth, it's whether they have integrity. >> but, by the way, if you want to go back then, they had property requirements for voting in those days. so they did have the wrong value system by today's standards. and my question is isn't is there something wrong with rich people elected, but what happens when they do? and they get into office. you have a problem there. it does help to have people who are familiar with what it means to work on an assembly line, what means to be a teacher, anybody that's sort of regular and not just capitalists. it used to be capitalists would support campaigns, now they say, why not me run. >> anybody who's been on the hill know ifs someone has a personal experience, they bring that to bear. someone has a position on gay rights, and it turns out, oh, you know what, their kids' guy. they have a position about cancer research because someone in their family has cancer, and that's okay. we draw on personal experiences in our life and politicians are still human. but if all of them are just
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working in that millionaire circle and no of them know anyone on food stamps, where do they draw from? >> chris, do you remember al gore, not to knock on al gore, but when he ran for president in 2004, he had to think of four or five people to describe their experiences in life, because he didn't have one. he went to the convention, listing these four or five -- they were all mixed, some hispanic, some african-american -- it was like, i really don't know american life, so let me give you some examples. what is this? it's like -- i don't know what it is, but it's not representative of democracy, is it? >> well, certainly, this idea that candidates don't relate, it's the supermarket checkout moment. and i think that is a problem for candidates. but you throw it back to the big city machines. i mean, tid thdid they really r? was that better for democracy? and when you look at the top 25 richest members of congress, these aren't necessarily your big power brokers. certainly, pelosi, some of those folks were there. >> claiborne pell, the elite
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claiborne pell borrowed some galoshes from a young guy and brought it back and said, where'd you get these from? he said, i got them from tom mckenna, and he said, would you thank tom for me. he had no recognition of the human experience. thank you, ari melber. and chris, you disagree, which is always good on this show. up next, we've all seen this photo. an african-american trying to enter her high school in little rock, arkansas, the one she's supposed to go to in 1957 after it was ordered to desegregate. tonight, we'll hear the fascinating story behind that picture, those people, the white one and the black one. this is "hardball," only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro.
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pick up four seats to get control of the senate, and two of them look pretty easy to do right now. we'll be right back. what is it about taking a first step that we find so compelling? is it because taking a step represents hope?
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where certain fungal infections are common. tell your doctor if you have had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have symptoms such as fever, fatigue, cough, or sores. you should not start humira if you have any kind of infection. ask your rheumatologist how you can defend against and help stop further joint damage with humira. we're back. when elizabeth beckford was 15 years old, she showed up for the first day of school in little rock, arkansas, and quickly entered the history books. she was african-american, one of nine black teenagers who were attempting to desegregate the all-white central high school back in 1957. the governor ordered the state's national guard troops not to let that happen. what made elizabeth's story even more compelling was this iconic photo that came to symbolize one of the darkest periods in american history. in the photo, elizabeth is followed and heckled by a crowd of white people. most dramatically by another
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teenager of the same age, a 15-year-old central high school student named hazel brian. there's a lot going on in that photo. very little of which is obvious from the simple picture right there. journalist david mcgolick spent years chronicling the lives of those two young women in that photo. the results will surprise you. he's written a big book called "elizabeth and hazel: two women of little rock." you went back and looked at these two 15-year-old girls, one angry as hell, and one, i guess, scared. >> one frightened for her life. one thinking she was about to be lynched. >> and what doesn't show -- let's keep the picture up, if you will, i want you to give us the inside narration. let's start with the african-american girl, one of the desegregators, trying to go to a school that she has a right to go to, but the military has to protect her right to do it. >> in fact, what doesn't show is that at the moment this picture was taken, she'd already been turned away from the school three times.
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she thought the military was there to protect her, and each time she'd gone up to the line of soldiers, expecting to be allowed expecting to be allowed through and each time they rebuffed her and crossed their bayonets and pushed her back into the street. >> governor faubus ordered them to do that? >> the governor ordered them to do that, and this was a complete surprise to her. what also doesn't hoe is the great fear on her, the great fear that she's feeling. i mean, she's wearing she is sunglasses and looks very stoic and very brave, but, of course, behind the sunglasses her eyes portray great fear and disappointment, and she's just scared for her life at this point. >> jim crowe was affected by lynching. >> not that far back, a lynching in little rock 30 years earlier. >> let's talk about the white woman, the white girl at the time. what was her development after that period? what happened did her? did she continue to resist? >> what's interesting about her is that, first of all, she wasn't a rabid segregationist.
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she was 15 years old. her political views were quite unformed. she'd gone down there that morning to have a good time and to be with her friends and to act out, and that's sort of -- she wasn't really terribly political about it, so that's the first sort of paradox about the picture. the second is that when you see a picture like that, you think somebody who looked so hateful is absolutely irredeemable. her life changed shortly after that. she got married and had children and within five years of the moment that picture was taken on her own, without any encouragement from anyone, she called up elizabeth and apologized. >> how did you find this out? i'm fascinated by your reportage. how did you know in in. >> i went down to little rock to do a bill clinton story, and i saw a poster of the two of them together that had been taken in 1997 seemingly looking like old friends, and i thought how do we get from the black and white picture, that hateful picture, that picture that epitomized
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race hatred in this country to this color picture of these two grown women reconciled seemingly getting along, and i knew to get from point "a" to point "b" would be a story. >> what's the larger question of the south i? grew up in the north in, a big city, philadelphia. northern and southern racial prejudices were different. one is about who was calling the shots. the other was about keeping your distance from each other. in the south what's it like today? do these people know each other? any kind of social integration? still boss and worker? >> i think it's very superficial. there's much more. you walk -- you land at the airport in little rock and look at the county commissioners, and half of them are black, so superficially things are much better but the races are still very much separate. even at central high school they are very separate and that story is in a way repitmized by the relationships of these two people. after they reconciled, there was a certain schism that developed and a distrust that developed
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between the two of them and after i met the two of them, within a few months after i met them in 1999, they stopped talking to one another, and they have not talked to one another for the last ten years. >> it's fascinating when you write about it. i read the part, because you're jewish and the background, the white woman was more skeptical because she thought you were on the side of civil rights as so many young jewish people were. >> it's a naivety about the northern whites. i felt the white woman would feel more solidarity and the black woman would be the one i would have to win over, and it was just the opposite. >> she thought you were a civil rights worker coming south. >> she thought i was a kindred spirit and knew i was interested in history and that i wanted to tell the story accurately. >> like i like this kind of journalism. >> so do i. >> because it's positive and it helps us understand ourselves for better or worse and for better. >> thank you, dave. the name of the book is "elizabeth and hazel." when we return, why conservative
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voters in iowa have a real problem agreeing on a candidate. they can't agree on the simultaneous equation they are trying to solve. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. ♪ girl started blowing up their credit score ♪ ♪ she bought a pizza party for the whole dorm floor ♪ ♪ hundred pounds of makeup at the makeup store ♪ ♪ and a ticket down to spring break in mexico ♪ ♪ but her folks didn't know 'cause her folks didn't go ♪ ♪ to free-credit-score-dot-com hard times for daddy and mom. ♪ v.o.: offer applies with enrollment in when bp made a commitment to the gulf, we knew it would take time, but we were determined to see it through. today, while our work continues, i want to update you on the progress: bp has set aside 20 billion dollars to fund economic and environmental recovery. we're paying for all spill- related clean-up costs. and we've established a 500 million dollar fund so independent scientists can study the gulf's wildlife and environment for ten years.
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let me finish tonight with this. a week from today actual republicans, conservative republicans speak. i'm talking about next tuesday's iowa caucuses. we need to pay attention because these voices will be the people competing in 2012 to control any republican who is chosen to seek
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the white house. they will be the forces demanding he meet their concerns. they will be the stakeholders in any republican administration should it take office. they will be the forces fighting over how to run it should that day come. so listen to the anti-government simplicity of ron paul. people who vote for him next tuesday want no government at the federal level, no health programs, no action on the environment, no economic help to people in trouble. they are not just anti-war, ant foreign at venturism, something i like about them, they are anti-public action period. think about it. listen to the religious right. they go for -- that goes for rick santorum next week. think about the country these people want to live in, a strict outlawing of abortion, perhaps with prison terms for those who seek them. don't put it past them. a total end to rights for gays, a turn back to the days of repression. these people don't like modernity period. they thought america was a better place when abortion was illegal and gays were neither seen nor heard and they could pretend they could exist.
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listen to the hawkishness being appealed to by the candidates in iowa. newt talks of moving the american embassy in israel, stirring up all the trouble one can imagine and mitt attacks the ked leader in north korea again for no other reason to stir up trouble in northern asia. the old days of "w" back in the saddle, neo-cons ready to move to gig up the man they put up in the white house just like they did the last time. you get it all with the bunch, the right wing attitude towards government, the right wing approach to social issues. can't wait to repacking the court to do who knows what. they can't wait to wheel out the right wing lingo of war, the hair-triggering appetite of another incursion into the muslim hornorth asian world. what is it with these people? what is it? pay close attention this week. they are making their pleas now and the candidates are responding in kind. look to iowa. watching the candidates feed the right wing faxes as all the keen business and strange merriment about it the


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