tv Morning Joe MSNBC July 14, 2011 6:00am-9:00am EDT
>> so far, gop plan is working. okay, they got buried over a barrel and they are spiking him like a page in the senate cloak room. obama agrees to almost $4 trillion in cuts. then any truly cynical move, obama pulls the old washington trick of asking for something in return. house majority leader eric cantor explains the republicans only expression will be the fact we are discussing a debt ceiling increase. okay? they agreed to negotiate. in return, the president gives them everything you want. it goes with the old saying you scratch my back, i get my back scratched.
look at the sun coming up over new york city. good morning, everyone. it's thursday, july 14th, middle of the summer. welcome to "morning joe." with us, we have the editor for new york magazine, john heilemann. and we have economicage cyst, steve rattner with charts and explanations as to what is going on. soon the flowers are going to be in bloom. >> how you doing, willie geist? >> hi, willie. >> no baseball. there was a soccer fan. united states women whooping up on france. the header, abby wombach. then the win. moving on. it was dominant. i guess japan has never beaten
the united states in world play. our ladies will be favorites. >> how exciting. how exciting. >> they match. >> they do match. >> the big news of the day, yesterday, of course, was moody's coming out and saying, listen, we don't expect this to happ happen. the chances are slight this is going to happen. just the chance it may happen, we are going to downgrade america's credit rating. >> we are going to put it on credit watch to downgrade it or we will downgrade it if it happens. first of all, the rating agencies were behind the curve during the whole financial crisis and they took a lot of heat for that. now they are trying to be more proactive. when you have a congress that refuses to address the issue,
what do they do? it's not a shocker. it's another symbol of how dysfunctional things are in washington and what the stakes are and how dangerous it is. you know a few people across the globe. >> i like it when mika says it better. >> say international financeer. >> i would think these are trying times for banks across the world. look at ireland a second time. it's spread to italy. we have all heard -- greece, portugal. it's all across europe. it's coming to america. it's in california. it's in 30 of the 50 states. >> if you are interested in how markets look at this and evaluate it all, right now the markets are 80%, 90% more concerned about europe than the u.s. they are terrified about europe. it's a scary place.
there's no such place as europe. a bunch of countries trying to get along and it's not working great. they are concerned about our debt ceiling. one way or another we will get the debt ceiling raised. when you watch the markets, they are not expecting a default. if lehman brothers falling can cause a shock in the economy, what happens if an italy or greece or ireland defaults? how massive of an impact would that have on middle america? >> potentially enormous. greece has an economy one sixth the size of california. they have $1.6 trillion of euro debt. it's $2 trillion of u.s. dollar debt outstanding. it's a huge economy. it's why they are working hard
to contain it. i think they have been criticized just as we were in some ways for always being one step behind and reactive and less proactive. if you want to know what we keep a banker or wall street guy awake, it is more disorganized and chaotic. europe, in some ways is the advanced guard of what the u.s. could look like. >> all right. they tried to do that yesterday. >> speaking of trying to do that. >> today will be the fifth consecutive white house meeting to try to raise the debt ceiling. john boehner are comparing the talks to jell-o saying some days it's firmer than others. sometimes it's like they left it
o out over night. yesterday was the most intense yet with the sparks coming from president obama and eric cantor. cantor's push for a short term deal on the debt limit. the president refused to agree. republican aids say he said i have reached the point where i say enough. would ronald reagan be sitting here? i have reached my limit. it may bring my presidency down, but i will not yield on this. cantor interrupted the president three times. the president finally said, don't call my bluff. i'm going to the american people on this. after the meeting, cantor said the president lost his temper and abruptly walked off. democratic officials dispute that. they will reconvene to discuss taxes. the obama administration is going to announce their plan. house republicans say they need to reduce the deficit and raise the debt ceiling through the end
of 2012. before we go on, not only can they not agree to things, john heilemann, on budgetary matters. >> it's true. it's very common as you know in washington, joe. when there's a meeting where there are two sides on the room and no reporters present for people to come out of the meeting and try to spin what happened in the meeting for the given sides. it's not totally new. what everyone does agree on is it was a factious meeting and more tension in the room and there was no question there was pal pable tension between the president and eric cantor. no one disputes those points. the meeting was probably the least productive of the five meetings mika mentioned. >> it's not always a bad thing.
sometimes the sides separate, then calmer heads prevail and say we can't let this happen tomorrow. steve said, these are serious, serious times. there was something with mitch mcconnell and the republican base and he got into a, let's say he made headlines with what he said on a radio show yesterday. >> mitch mcconnell says allowing a default would destroy the republican brand. as there's no question the debt ceiling will be raised. speaking on laura ingram's radio show, he said it's largely a political move. >> just like we knew shutting down the government in 1995 was not going to work for us. it helped bill clinton get reele reelected. i refuse to help barack obama get reelected and we have co-ownership of a bad economy.
>> i'm trying to figure out a way to say it. go ahead. >> let's go to steve rattner. have you met mitch mcconnell before? >> i have not. >> he's in an interesting position. he's the head of the republican party in the senate in the year of the tea party, 2010-2011. he's an establishment guy. i don't say that negatively. i think the republican party needs an establishment guy and women in there. this is the last 24-48 hours, i don't know what your take is. i think it's laid that truth that he's got one foot in the tea party camp, trying to prove he's got good street. in the end, he's an establishment guy calling all his friends on wall street saying it's okay, we are going to do the right thing and raise the debt ceiling. it puts him in a terrible position.
>> he's in a terrible position. 90% of the house sides. i think the president has, you commend him and i feel the same way. offered compromise, reasonable compromise. you have two incredible polls. i think mcconnell is trying to bridge this. he gets it. a default would not only be bad for the country, but the republican party. >> he's also the shrewdest negotiator of any of the parties around the table. >> is he really? >> if you polled savvy insiders whoever they are, mitch mcconnell, john boehner, barack obama, who would you want gochuating your side? a lot of people say mitch mcconnell is the guy you want. what many saw as a capitulation is a clever way to solve the
problem. they have to try not to get saddled with the political cost. trying to decouple, there's a genius to it, in a way. >> absolutely. one of the interesting questions is does it have a chance of getting through the house. >> it's depressing to hear him talk default in terms of the republican brand rather than what it means to the country. >> this is a guy who is a tactician, works great behind the scenes. like harry reid, put him behind the camera and he says things that won't help him. or my number one goal is defeating barack obama. it's not his number one, two, three or ten goal. again, he felt he needed to say that to prove his credibility to conservatives. let me say, there are some of us, i think i'm the only one at this table, perhaps, that sees the failure to raise the debt ceiling as a disaster.
i also see raising the debt ceiling this time, without significant budget cuts equally as disastrous. i voted against the debt ceiling being raised when they tried to raise it to $5 trillion because i didn't think clinton was serious. there is -- there is sort of a force pushing things down the road, steve rattner that says raise the debt ceiling. raise the debt ceiling. we are at the 11th hour. i understand, but you can go back and pull the tapes from this show in early january of 2011 when i was saying this debt ceiling is going to be serious. i talked to the freshmen. it's all they are talking ability. nine months out and here we are dealing with the 11th hour. >> i agree. if we raise the debt ceiling and get nothing out of it after the
emotion and commotion to come out with something that does nothing to address the needs where there's no other pressure point in the future that provokes such a discussion. it's a terrible outcome. >> that's the keyword, pressure point. there's a momentum in washington. whether it's george bush with the medicare drug plan or with democrats spending more. there are so few pressure points where you can actually say no, we are going to stop. we are going to slow down spending. this is a pressure point. if this passes, it's one of the reasons why i personally thought mitch mcconnell was so cynical and bad. if this moment passes, we will not have another one for a very long time >> it's why republicans have overplayed their hand. they had an opportunity. raising the debt ceiling is a matter of course.
it doesn't become a political issue. in this case, republicans thought they had leverage. they decided to turn it into a fight about policy. the president, you know, does something extraordinary giving into republican leverage. it has put a bunch of, in a variety of settings put big things on the table. republicans overplayed their hands in the sense they have been so intransigenintransigent. they could have had a victory for their cause. >> yesterday, we had pat buchanan, i think some people would say he's conservative and john kasich agree with me that we could all go to a respective base back when i was in congress and buchanan when he was running
for president and say we are going to close the tax loopholes. there's no reason warren buffett should pay less taxes. that way, you could raise revenues other ways. republicans didn't call the president's bluff. i'll say, i think it would have been fascinating to see if the president was serious about doing anything about medicare and social security. i think republicans could have called his bluff on that. and the democrats bluff. i think they would have found a lot of smoke in mirrors. they didn't do that. now, they are in big trouble. >> let me put john heilemann in an uncomfortable situation. >> good. >> oh, boy. >> i'm looking at the headlines willie is reading, drama level rises. what happened in the meeting, the dynamics of the personality of people on the show. i like them much, but have been
frustrated at times at the well, what is it? what could have led to an impasse in the room and maybe the president walking out. i doubt he lost his temper. >> oh, come on. why do you doubt that? >> i doubt it. >> seriously? come on. i'm sure he lost his temper. >> i think he was frustrated. he said all right, i'm done here. >> that is an extreme version of what happened. what probably didn't click. >> i thought you were going to ask me something awkward. >> she tried to insult eric cantor. >> no, i'm not. i like him a lot. he's being difficult and you know it. >> i think many people, i would say this is not just true in the white house, i think it's true among senators in the republican party, they look at eric cantor as the problem here. look at him as the problem on a
variety of different fronts, not in terms of what he represents in terms of the republican caucus and the house that is totally refuses to have revenue increases. being a guy who is not necessarily handled himself in a way they consider kosher. by that, i mean, you know, he has been circulating a document that has from the biden negotiations that has spending cuts in it, that he claims they were agreed to. people have taken that to be -- if you are the chief, if you are a negotiator, you shouldn't pass the documents around from the negotiations. if you are the guy who is supposed to be in good faith bargaining, you shouldn't do that. there are ways he's conducting himself in that or not being helpful or childish or being
self-serving. so he has built up some bad will on the part of other people in the negotiations. i think the president is frustrated. i think the senate feels he's more of the problem than the solution. >> at the end of the day, the problem is you have eric cantor and the vast majority of house republicans so dug in, so inflexible, so totally unwilling to compromise, how do you do a deal with people who say it's my way or the highway? how does that work in the political system? >> that's his tone, by the way. >> his tone, his words, everything. couldn't be clearer. >> okay, coming up -- >> did you get what you want? >> i did. >> are you happy? >> verbal. >> mika would never get angry. >> my president doesn't get angry. he's cool as a cucumber. he's fine. >> okay.
>> vomit. >> exactly. >> that outfit you were wearing yesterday, my mom said it looked like a perrot vomited on it. >> i'm going to read it now. this morning, is the subject line. now it's your turn. you looked awful this morning. >> that's the nicest part of the e-mail. >> you grabbed the sweater because you were cold and didn't think about what it looked like. i used to call her a parrot. you looked like a parrot and there are no excuses. >> get to the last line and be done with it. >> as for your hair, i can't blame your hairdresser because you haven't seen him in weeks. your hair is done over your
right eye making your head tilt sideways. you looked an opportunity to look stupendus. >> she's a rough mom. claire mccaskill of missouri. ron paul has a new ad hitting the air waves. it has the flair of a hollywood movie premier. we will take a look at you take a look at gotham. you are watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. a network of possibilities. in here, the planned combination of at&t and t-mobile would deliver our next generation mobile broadband experience to 55 million more americans, many in small towns and rural communities,
wendys. >> we have weaponized our food. isn't there some bless comprehensible theory that makes it sound like it's not our fault. >> i think obesity is going to be environmentally related. there's interesting unpublished research. >> are you saying it's us eating environmental peptide nutrition crunch? i think it might take a new generation of americans. >> michael brown could be the largest baby ever born in texas. >> we are going to need a bigger baconator. >> take a look at the morning papers. >> that baby is so big! >> the dallas morning news. a north texas water park dumping 2,000 pounds of ice in the pool.
temperatures will be over 100 degrees until next wednesday. >> governor cuomo says retirement benefits for future city workers. the overhaul was the biggest failure of the last session. his biggest regret, commenting about how to make lasagna. >> the biggest casualty of a minnesota government shutdown is more than 300 bars and liquor stores unable to restock supplies. they are unable to renew their alcohol purchasing license. the miller's and koors companies are told to remove their beer. willie geist now it gets serious. >> that is immoral. that is immoral. all right, with us now, the
chief white house correspondent for politico, mr. mike allen. hey, mike. >> good morning, you guys. >> you have a new ron paul ad you are saying it's hollywood-style, it's going to hit the air waves in iowa and new hampshire. let's take a peek. >> in the '80s, reagan, a debt ceiling compromise. democrats promising spending cuts but delivering only tax hikes. the '90s brought more compromises, more broken promises and more new taxes. this august, the next chapter will be written defining moment. one candidate has always been true. ron paul cut spending, balanced the budget, no deals. standing up to the washington machine. >> there you go. >> it is hollywood-style, mike allen. what role does ron paul play this time around in 2012?
>> as you know, from reading your e-mail, he has fervent followers. this time, more of a texas sized campaign to go with it. he's building infrastructure in iowa and new hampshire. he's not going to run for congress. he's going all in with the presidential race. we see with these spots in the two early states he's going to be a big part of the dialogue. he bought prime real estate at the ames straw poll. we are going to see more of ron paul and getting more on why we're not covering him more. >> he's been about balancing budget and concerned about debt and deficit. he may not be the nominee, but this could be the political moment here. >> one of the unintended consequences about the current path of putting out a solving the debt ceiling only through
december 2012 is taxes spending, will be big issues in the primaries and also in the general. it could favor republicans. >> i hadn't thought about that. that's one reason the president -- why didn't he want four, three, six, nine months if you can get a more comprehensive deal. maybe that's why. >> do you think if ron paul doesn't win the republican nomination, which is likely, do you think he'll run as an independent, try to start a libertarian election? >> i think you'll agree, conditions in the country have never been more promising for a third party, a third force, an independent candidate. we don't know who that is. he could peel off a little bit. the math shows, in this race, where obama is fueling is 52%. a point or two could make a real difference. >> mike allen, thanks so much.
talk to you soon. >> enjoy your baconator. we will. everyone but mika. coming up, oh, boy. sarah palin. >> the u.s. women's team rolls past in the world cup finals. the more late game heroic from the familiar face. it's ahead in sports. almost tastes like one of jack's cereals. fiber one. uh, forgot jack's cereal. [ jack ] what's for breakfast? um... try the number one! [ jack ] yeah, this is pretty good. [ male announcer ] half a day's worth of fiber. fiber one. hey, dad, you think i could drive? i'll tell you what -- when we stop to fill it up.
ourselves. >> we'll take it from here, guys. >> willie. now, we're going to recap the highlights of the show. we begin, not begin because we already began. we replay the women's u.s. soccer team. a gaines france in the semifinals. great start for usa. lauren cheney, the troops watching in afghanistan love it. usa up, 1-0 there. france picks up the pace. a good looking goal. solo. the keeper. nice play there to keep it away. they fire a shot off the crossbar. 1-0 at halftime. 54th minute. tough play. the ball sneaks off the back post. we are tied at 1. in the 70th minute, the french keeper can't hold the save.
a rebound chance. it's not the way. she was called off sides. nine minutes later, usa with a corner kick. abby wombach knocks it in. the same head does it again. usa up, 2-1 there. three minutes later, another beautiful play. shoots with her left foot. usa advances with 3-1 victory over france. the other semifinals, japan wins 3-1. sunday, the women's world cup, the united states of america versus japan. earlier, we told you about the yankee fan who handed over derek jeter's home run hit. now we can stop feeling bad for the 23-year-old. here is why. miller has offered to pay for
all his yankee-related taxes should the irs come after him. that's one thing. two companies, modell's sporting goods says they will each donate $25,000 to lopez to help pay off his student loans. how about that? >> that is great. >> it doesn't stop there. >> did he get knives as well? >> modell's gave their 2009 world championship ring to lopez. he got a world series. wait, there's more. >> come on. >> trading cards say they will produce a baseball card featuring lopez coming out later this year. >> that's a good day. >> he did the right thing. >> he did. >> come on, seriously? a great milestone for
rutgers defensive tackle. he was paralyzed during a game last october. look at the photograph he tweeted out yesterday. this is nine months later, him standing up for the first time since his spinal cord injury. he was paralyzed from the neck down. he tweeted he was moving his arms little by little and now standing on his own two feet. good news there. the british open today in royal st. george in england. atop the leader board, a couple americans near the top. other americans tied for 61. mickelson tees off later this afternoon. tiger woods not playing because of an injury. there you have it.
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if there are those out there willing to serve and know not to be so partisan they can't just do what's right for the people that elected them. i would certainly find that person and support them and make sure they defeat barack obama in 2012. now, i'm not wholly confident -- >> i don't even seriously -- >> god! god! help us all. help me lord. >> i don't know where to begin. there are so many different things wrong with that. no. i -- i -- you don't want me to do that. >> let's continue to play with the medium that is paying. >> do an interview for news week and say -- >> all right, washington post plays the victim well. this is an interesting piece. the trouble with the murdock
empire is something alexander hamilton, the wisest observer of the populous rhetoric would have understood. they seem to have bred an arrogance for rules. in the name of the masses, anything goes. the qualities are characteristic in those who claim to speak in the name of the people and begin to cross the line. >> so, news corps -- >> it's still in the headlines. >> murdock drops his purchase. there you go. let's go to the charts. >> yeah. >> steve rattner, you have brought in great charts on the sources of government debt. when you go out and give speeches, it's shocking how little some people know about what the real drivers of debt are. they will say such and such is
what we really need to cut. if we just cut that. in fact, it's the basics. you have it here. let's start with total outstanding debt, the first chart. >> it's what people are familiar with. the $14 trillion debt ceiling. this is what is given to the public. it's gone up steeply. it's grown at an 8.5% rate. much, much faster than the economy. what's worth about noting, any of the budget deals, the number grows by $10 trillion over the next ten years. we are talking $1.4 trillion. >> say we get $4 trillion, we still grow by $6 trillion. even in the best case scenario, we grow our debt more over the next ten years an the united
states of america grew in the first 120 years of existence. >> that's true. the tip of the iceberg, there's more behind it. let's look at what's behind it. it doesn't include social security. there's another set of unfunded liability. >> add $5.4 trillion to that number. >> social security as you and others said is not the key driver. the key driver is what? >> medicare. let's look at medicare. you can see the chart has gone up more dramatically. now those two lines on the right represent different interpretations of how obama care will affect the ultimate costs. i think you realistically need to look at the upper lines. president obama's plan made a small dent in it. when looking at $35 trillion, that's not a change. >> we are at $14 trillion medicare. to put it in proper perspective
for americans that don't follow the numbers closely, medicare, under the most likely scenario adds another $35 trillion to our national debt, to our obligation? >> to our obligation. they are obligations. if you put it all together, you see a picture of $54 trillion of obligations that have gone up by -- that have gone up from 17 trillion ten years ago. look at the tiny blue bar. that's the gdp. that tells you with a gdp of $14.5 trillion, every one of us would have to work for free for four years simply to meet the obligations to put the $52 trillion in the bank that is required if we funded the programs in order to pay for them. >> here is the great news. even if washington gets its act together and does something that most people consider
extraordinary, instead of $54 trillion in obligations, we'll have $50 trillion in obligations, happy days are here again. >> you have grasped the essential point. that is the big take away. the big take away is there's nothing we can do in this round that will not be enough. we have to do what we can do. we have to be realistic about what's ahead of us. it's going to require trimming the obligations and beginning to pay for them. >> how did we approach that number if we are going kicking and screaming to get $4 trillion, which we probably won't get. how can we ever, as a political machine work toward the giant number if we can't do this now? >> it's a huge problem. in the last ten years whatever discipline we had, we lost. we passed prescription drug plan, we didn't pay for any of it. >> $7 trillion. >> we are running deficits of
$1.5 trillion a year. they don't come out of the stimulus, they come out of spending. $400 billion of bush tax cuts we couldn't afford. at some point, either the markets are going to force us to make a decision or we are going to have to cut back benefits or raise taxes on all the people sitting around the table. the numbers have to work. there's no alternative. >> it's math. >> it's math. >> it's not ideology, it's math and the numbers don't look good for the next generation. so, the biggest drivers are in order, then medicare. medicaid, what? social security and defense, in that order? >> our general debt, our $14 trillion of having had deficits for the last ten years is a big driver. interest is consuming a big part of our budget.
it's not going to change. >> what happens to these numbers, the national debt when interest rates go up to 5%, 6%, 7%. >> the first thing is the deficit goes up because interest rates are going up. all the numbers go up again. >> spiral. >> thank you, rattner. >> people need to understand it. people are kicking and screaming about small debt fields. this is what's in front of us for the next generation. >> they have to understand the $14 trillion number isn't the end of the story, it's the beginning. >> exactly. good point. willie, what do you have coming up? >> news you can't use. two comedy giants. jerry seinfeld slapping jon stewart across the face. we'll tell you why. boy, i'm glad we got aflac huh. aflac! oh, i've just got major medical...
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to a gay client he could pray away the gay. use prayer to free himself of homosexuality. jon stewart took the premise and tried to repress his own internal instincts, not through prayer, but a comedy therapist, jerry seinfeld. watch. >> you are having trouble, john. you have that urge to ridicule, again, aren't you? >> yes. presidential candidates husbands trying to cure gay people. take a look. >> okay. ♪ >> wow. okay. i'm coming in. >> oh, really. i appreciate that. >> you need to get it out here. what is your body wanting you to say? >> i don't know, something like he's so gay he called "top gun"
that volleyball movie. oh, my god! >> no. no. no. >> wow. wow. >> try watching the footage and make an observation. >> he's a big man doing dancing. he's doing the shag. all right, the shag. it's a funny name and he's got a funny name. marcus bachmann. marcus bachmann. >> how is that funny? bachmann. it's like a classic superhero, bachmann. you see? you see? i can't believe you get emmys for this crap. you see me getting laughs, just the way i talk. >> yes. yes. i see you getting laughs. >> no, they are not laughing. this is my natural tone.
>> that's a funny tone. you have a funny tone. >> i'm not being funny. this is not a tone. >> oh, my gosh. wow. that was great. >> so what was your hang up, john heilemann? >> i don't have a hang up. it's a curious thing for them to talk about. >> what? >> i didn't see it. what did they talk about? >> the bid of jon stewart playing for the video and audio and wanting to make jokes about what he thought was his perception that marcus bachmann was behaving like he was gay. given how topical jon stewart is, it was strange for them to say about marcus bachmann. it was an interesting thing. >> i thought it was funny. i thought jerry seinfeld was
hilarious. >> two funny guys. >> they are two funny guys. >> sometimes you drill lofty. >> i'm not taking it seriously at all. i think it was a long bit. >> "top gun" wow, huh? >> that's right. >> i don't understand. coming up next, senator claire mccaskill and charles blow. we'll be right back. [ grunts ]
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the president has presented us with three choices. smoke in mirrors, tax hikes or default. republicans choose none of the above. >> co-incidentally none of the above is also the leading republican presidential candidate. mcconnell has the way out of the mess. keep republicans from raising taxes or defaulting. ask the president to submit a request to congress to raise the debt ceiling, then vote yes disapproving on what they asked the president to do, then obama vetoes the disapproval.
the debt ceiling gets raised and the republicans get to say they voted against it, twice. just like in the classic jimmy stewart movie, he gives up and starts shooting people. >> welcome back to "morning joe." top of the hour. >> was that in between? >> exactly. >> equal. >> john heilemann is still with us. ginning us from new york times, charles blow. good to have you. also with us, democratic senator from missouri, senator claire mccaskill. my favorite senator. i love her. >> so, senator, a rough day yesterday in the white house. we had steve rattner on earlier today. i'm sure it makes a lot of us nervous here and people in missouri, or missouri, depending on which part of the state you are from.
republicans are having trouble cutting the debt yet look at the $54 trillion we have in obligations. it looks like our leaders aren't up to it. how do we get moving forward and take care of a generational crisis? >> i think there's a disconnect in washington. there are too many people looking at this as a team sport and so focused on elections and what should we do to help us get elected. what can we do to help the other guy not get elected. they are missing what most of us are thinking, we are all full of it. anybody who is here is going to be painted with a negative brush if we can't step aside from the politics long enough to save what is clearly going to be -- anybody with any intelligence and understanding of our finances, if we decide we are going to quit paying our bills, then our debt is going to
skyrocket because of the interest rates going up. to say nothing of the problems that are going to happen in the market and talk about uncertainty for businesses. republicans have been preaching uncertainty as a montra for the last six months. it's time a group of us come together. we are looking for republicans right now. we can clean out the tax code and bring down tax rates and still produce revenue for the debt and deficit. we can do things with the deficit and medicare that make sense. we can do things with spending cuts. 17 democrats voted for my spending cap last year. there are a group of democrats willing to get serious about spending cuts. we need to do all of the above and quit fooling around. >> how do you make that happen? >> what is the plan on the tax side of things. you said you could bring down the tax rate but get rid of a lot of loopholes to corporations who pay zero and allow
billionaires to pay 15% and 17% in taxes. is there a plan on the floor to do that specifically? and how much money can you raise by cutting the loopholes? >> you could raise a lot of money if you didn't lower the tax rate. you can raise a significant amount of money if you take part of it -- >> let's say, i'm sorry to interpret, say you don't lower the tax rate, just get rid of loopholes how much money can you save? >> easily $1 trillion over the next year. depending on if you go all the way with the mortgage deduction or charity deductions. there's ways to craft it to maintain the deductions for the middle class but level the playing field for everybody else. we have sectors that get more
because of the powers they have had over the last 20, 30 years. for the life of me, i cannot figure out why the republicans, a lot of the tea party folks are talking a flat tax rate. why aren't the republicans stepping up and saying we need to get rid of the tax goodies and lower the corporate rate and the individual rate and apply the money to the deficit? that's the thing that could make the deal right now. for the life of me, i can't figure out -- i think mitch mcconnell has lost his mind. >> really? when you see mitch in the senate dining room later on today and he asks why do you think i have lost my mind, what do you tell him? >> honestly, you do a press conference and say here is a solution to the problem. let the democrats do it and we want them to do it three times before the next election and it will be okay with us if they do it as long as we don't have to touch it.
people aren't ridiculing that? >> yeah. >> i mean, this is when we are supposed to come together and show the country we are capable of governing. not when we are supposed to figure out what is the best strategy for me to become the floor leader. this is the strategy to take out me and a few others so mitch can become the majority floor leader. it's fine he wants to be the majority floor leader. right now, we have one of the most serious situations we have confronted in a long, long time. it's really important for ten minutes to put all that aside and get the deal done. then they can move on and play politics for the next six or nine months. >> let's check out the list, mitch mcconnell lost his mind, at least temporarily. john boehner compared the talks at the white house to jell-o saying some days it's firmer than others sometimes it's like
they left it out overnight. >> you know, i didn't -- by the way, it's easy for me to criticize and i shouldn't be so tough on mitch mcconnell. i am not in the negotiations. i know, it's more important than my re-election to get a handle on spending and the structural debt. i do know that it's way more important. i know there are some of us that are willing to make this deal. i can't speak to the house. i don't know -- i think john boehner must have -- i don't know what he's got going on in his caucus. it looks like a hot, sloppy mess. you have member that is are principles and think the meltdown, the default would bring is a good thing for the government and you have moderate republicans that understand we have to do something. then you have a lot of moderate democrats that were defeated and the bulk of the caucus is more liberal than the democrats in the senate.
it's not easy. i'm not saying this is easy. if we ratchet down the politics i think we could get it going. >> i don't think you are trying to be mean. i don't. >> she's not. by the way -- >> i'm sorry, but the republicans, do they not, joe, look for whatever it's worth there may be very explanatory details in between. it's the case in the middle. don't they look extremely difficult at this point? extremely rigid? >> the president coming out saying he's going to put medicare and social security on the table. >> come on. >> that has put the republican party back on their heels for the past three or four days. i understand completely, john heilemann why a republican -- i would say the same thing if i were in office. right now, we are not going to raise tax rates. however, we are going to go after these loopholes that are unfair, not only for working
class americans but middle americans and people making $250,000 to $400,000 a year that don't pay 16% tax rates or 0% tax rates. claire mccaskill is up for re-election, she's in missouri and talking like a lot of people in missouri and around america. there's a reason missouri is a swing state. most persons say social security, medicare, medicaid, they are going bankrupt. close the tax loopholes. >> i agree with that. what you said, no one, including the president proposed raising tax rates right now. the president is raising the rate on the upper -- he's still talking -- you know, one of the things, john boehner has not gotten enough credit to being open to the deal on a political basis. the bush tax cuts are set to expire in 2012.
part of what boehner was trying to do was to lock them in on the rest of the income brackets. he was trying to craft a pretty interesting political deal to help republicans in a lot of ways. i want to ask senator mccaskill about what she was saying about senator mcconnell. you said he lost his mind. the white house said they are open to senator mcconnell's proposal if it comes to that. are you saying, first, the white house has lost its mind and second, are you saying there would be a problem with democratic votes in the senate for that plan if it turns out that plan is the only way to keep us from defaulting? >> i think a lot of folks said they are open to the mcconnell plan. we are reassured that at least they are thinking about worst case scenario. honestly, if you are in a
negotiation and your idea is, let's figure out a way to make them do this all by themselves and make them do it three times before the election, it just is so brazenly political is what i'm saying. >> if i were claire mccaskill, i would tell anybody in the white house that says it's a good idea to go straight to hell. harry reid, i'm saying behind the scenes i would say that because claire mccaskill, you can't take the vote three times before 2012. we could go to democrats in moderate states across america. they can't take the vote, eater. it's political suicide. >> what is the rational to make us do it three times? these are the guys that said certainty. they said certainty, certainty, certainty. they are going to see if they can get the vote up three times in the next year. that's what's ridiculous about
it. the way he proposed it was like putting a sign around his neck, this is all about winning for the republicans in an election. that's what i'm discouraged by. i just think, i'll tell you when i got sickened in the pit of my stomach, the vote on the oil subsidies. really? we are facing this kind of problem and we couldn't get but one republican vote to quit writing checks to the most profitable corporations in the world. when they wouldn't vote, i knew it wasn't going to be good. that's the low-hangi ining frui. if we can't do that, how are we going to do the hard things this situation demands of the leaders in this town? i'll be honest, i'm optimistic by nature, but i am very discouraged. >> on that happy note, thanks for being with us. >> thanks, guys.
>> charles, did you listen to claire mccaskill? >> there's a reason why she sounds like she represents the middle of america. she does represent the middle of america. not too democratic, not to republican. she has talked about it. let's cut spending. she said cut spending and reduce the debt. for my re-election, it's one of the most important things. close the loopholes, don't raise the rates. you can raise almost $1 trillion. the devil is in the details, but that's a good place to start a compromise, isn't it? >> it is a good place. the republicans made it clear they did not come to compromise in any way. in fact, i'm waiting for a republican to say what it is they are willing to compromise on. what we keep hearing coming out of the discussions are $1
trillion, $1.7 trillion where they are saying we have decided to cut in these ways. that's on the democratic side. what area, name one where the republicans have given a single inch to say they are willing -- >> i have to say, i can't. i can't. >> it is not a negotiation. it is a hostage taking. it is wrong. it is wrong. >> i'm sorry -- they are the ones making it difficult. >> when boehner was doing the retreat from the bargain, he said at a press conference, i'll tell you what we will compromise. we'll give the president his increase in the debt ceiling and we'll take the spending cuts. you have to pause on that for a moment and say the increase in the debt ceiling isn't -- >> i don't want to be -- i don't want to be a nag here about my republican party, but we could show the charts that show the
national debt, this president, ten or five years from now, he's going to have his debt ceiling. he's spending way too much money. let's make no mistake about it now. increasing the debt ceiling, this is george w. bush but five years from now, it's barack obama's. this is what happens when you spend the type of money you have spend from 2001 to 2009. you have an economy that crashes. yes, republican, i talked about it in realtime in 2002, 2003 and 2004. this is what we have been led to in 2011. this is george w. bush in debt. >> the democrats are in this, too. not only did they say yes, every time republicans talk about spending too much money, democrats yell and say you are
starving children, spend more. yeah. republicans were in charge. you can't just put this on barack obama. this is everybody's problem. you know what? republicans have to come forward with a plan. >> with something to give. >> there's a new poll out here, which president is to blame? there you go. george bush 54%, barack obama 24%. i don't know if it helps him for elections, but it helps him now. republicans have to come up with a plan. >> they have to come up with something. >> how about this? a plan. >> it's unbelievable. it's not just me. it's everybody. they look difficult. very difficult. >> not everybody. >> he wants to change the constitution for a balanced budget. pat toomey will be here. up next, congressman cleaver
will be here. >> finally a beautiful forecast for the next week for areas of the northeast, mid-atlantic and possibly the great lakes. temperatures are very comfortable this morning, in the 60s. humidity is low. a fantastic afternoon. probably one of the best summer days you are going to get. plenty of sunshine. temperatures in the mid-80s. d.c. looks great into the weekend. gets more humid and hot sunday into monday. for three or four days in a row, it looks fantastic. the hot weather is in the middle of the country, again. we'll get drought. temperatures today from san antonio to houston, san antonio and dallas, easily in the 100s. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. this past year alone
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clearly, if we went so far to default on the debt, it would be a major crisis because the treasury security is viewed as the safest security in the world for much of our financial system. the notion that it would become suddenly unreliable would throw shock waves to the entire global financial system. >> with us now from washington, democratic representative chairman from the congressional black caucus, congressman emanuel cleaver. great to be with you. >> great to see you. >> we have been talking about the debt for the past year or so. before that, we were talking health care reform. something we rarely talk about. washington over the past several years, jobs. in the african-american community, especially, the
unemployment rate is staggering. talk about that. >> well, you know, unfortunately, in washington, we are quite often talking about things the rest of the country is not that interested in. there's no question we have to do something about the debt. we have to do something about bringing spending under control. but, we are now 191 days into this new session of congress. we have not had any legislation brought to the floor that would create jobs. the congressional black caucus introduced 40 pieces of legislation to deal with jobs. we have a crisis in the african-american community. when you look at unemployment for african-americans, at 16.2, those are depression level unemployment numbers. if you add what the labor
department considers where you add in those who have given up and those underemployed, that number has almost doubled. we've not had movement in congress or anywhere else for that matter trying to generate and create opportunities for americans to go back to work. >> why? >> i think we get into washington, somebody begins to talk about one issue that is supposed to be important. all of a sudden, all of you are energy goes to that. we are talking the debt ceiling, all day, every day. we are not, i don't think, thinking about the fact 16.2% of the american population is unempl unemployed. if we had 16.2% unemployment with tv news hosts and tv morning show individuals, it would be terrible. >> a disaster. >> no question about it.
>> but you talk about 16% number. that's actually, as you said, especially african-american community, that number is skewed so low. it's actually over 30% if you look at the real numbers and people that are discouraged and have given up. this is an epidemic. high school drop outs. nearly one-third of african-americans unemployed now. you start talking about young african-american males and the numbers skyrocket. >> it is so bad that i think it merits the president and congress declaring that this is a national emergency. if that doesn't happen, and happen quickly, i think that we're going to look at the situation where african-american's are actually going to begin to move backwards. over the last 25 years we have
done something in this country that couldn't be done around the world. if this continues, if unemployment continues and drop out rate continues, i'm looking for serious problems down the road. >> we talk about china. we cannot write off one-third of its population, which is what we are doing right now. >> one part of the discussion that doesn't get a lot of traction, it's very important. african-americans for the entire population, african-americans that have jobs, 21% of those jobs are in government. every time you hear someone say, local governments being cut, you are cutting directly into african-american employment. for black men, government is the number one employer. for black women, it is the number two employer. that has a lot of cultural
roots. for a very long time, the only profession that black people could have to make it around the systems was to go into government to become professionals so they became teachers and other things. when you start cutting off tons of teachers, laying off people in government around the country, not just federal but local and state cutting and cutting since january 2009 we have shared 500,000 government jobs mostly on the local and state level. until you figure out ways we rectify that, african-americans have a real problem. there's no sense that may change. >> congressman, it's not going to change, it's going to get worse. look at andrew cuomo, one of his biggest regrets is not making more end roads on cutting benefits. most of the states are under going a fiscal crisis.
so this, actually, makes your initiatives all the more critical to talk about getting african-americans in the private sector. you are talking job fares. what are others doing right now? >> well, two things. we are going to a jobs fair and going around the country. we are going to begin in cleveland and end up in los angeles at the end. we are bringing in people from all over everywhere. we have a large number of major corporation that is committed themselves to providing jobs, real jobs. our goal is to get 10,000 jobs. it might not sound like a lot but it's significant. >> one of the thing that is is important, we presented to the president ideas that if you put 20% of the money from grant making agencies, federal agencies into areas where there's poverty, we can begin to make changes. just so the viewers understand,
the number one area that would qualify is an area in kentucky that is not represented by an african-american. the state of missouri, for example, the most poverty stricken area in the state of missouri is represented by emmerson who you know, not kansas city or st. louis. we think it helps people, not necessarily by race but by their situation and condition. we do it on the basis of census tracks. i think this is the way to move. we are excited about the possibility of almost every major company in the nation that signed up to provide jobs. >> that is great. john heilemann, he said 10,000 new jobs for african-americans and as the congressman said, for others whether it's his district or others.
in this economy, it's significant. >> it is. i would like to get in a quick one before we go. you twice mentioned the president, congressman. he is the first african-american president. are you satisfied with the degree of leadership he's provided or disappointed? >> the president has a plate that is dripping with so many issues on it. of course we would like to have the president contribute to this process a little more but we also understand his situation. we need the white house, ultimately, to be involved if we are going to deal with this problem in an effective way. >> congress cleaver thank you so much. >> would love to get a copy, we are going to reach out to your office, we would love to get a copy of these areas with chronic unemployment and put it on our website. >> we'll send it to you. >> thank you, sir. republicans rally around mitch mcconnell's plan without spending cuts?
pat toomey joins us next. [ barks ] ♪ [ cat meows ] ♪ [ whistles ] ♪ [ cat meows ] ♪ [ ting! ] [ male announcer ] travelers can help you protect the things you care about and save money with multi-policy discounts. are you getting the coverage you need and the discounts you deserve? for an agent or quote, call 800-my-coverage or visit travelers.com. to your kids' wet skin. new neutrogena® wet skin kids. ordinary sunblock drips and whitens. neutrogena® wet skin cuts through water. forms a broad spectrum barrier for full strength sun protection. wet skin. neutrogena®.
figure out why the republicans, a lot of the tea party folks are talking a flat tax rate. why aren't the republicans stepping up and saying we need to get rid of the tax goodies, lower the corporate rate and apply the money to the deficit? that's the thing that could make the deal right now. for the life of me, i can't figure out, i think mitch mcconnell has lost his mind. >> welcome back to "morning joe." >> amen. >> the democratic hour of power. let's go to capitol hill and talk to senator pat toomey. thank you for coming on the democratic power of hour and being the first politician appearing on this show that voted for a republican in a presidential contest. how are you this morning? >> i'm doing great. >> when you have one senator saying another senator lost his mind, you have to ask a third
senator what he thinks about that. so you do understand what claire mccaskill is saying. mitch mcconnell thinks i'm going to vote to raise the debt ceiling three times before my re-election in missouri, it's not going to happen, is it? >> i don't know if it's going to happen. what i have been worried about is washington will do what washington usually does, which is avoid the tough decisions and go ahead and raise the debt limits. maybe there's a fig leaf of cover for people but no change in our fiscal direction and i won't be a part of that. i'm worried we are heading in that direction. >> i'm very worried about it. mitch mcconnell talking about the deal he made yesterday, i think the worst case scenario, the nightmare scenario, if you don't mind me associating myself with you, we did it in the house
and you are doing it in the senate. for those of us that have been concerned about the national debt for decades the worst case scenario is getting it passed without significant cuts. >> it's right. i am concerned that's where we are headed. we are living on borrowed time. we are in a worse position than in the mid-90s. we have seen how this plays out in europe. we are not that far behind. that's why, i think, this is our moment to do something serious. one of the problems i fault republicans for is not having articulated the circumstances under which we are willing to raise the debt limit. we have said mr. president we'll give you the full debt limit increase you have asked for if you agree to put us on a path to a balanced budget.
i don't think it's unreasonable. this ad, you were part of that, joe, back in the '90s. in 2007 we were 1% away from gdp of a balanced budget. >> my feeling is, we have had this frustration on this show, we have been asking now for two years, three years people to come on this show. okay, we can't balance the budget. we understand the economy is bad, you don't want to slash and burn. come on, five years, seven years, ten years. give me a 15-year plan to balance the budget. it's a starting point. that was the big debate. republicans said seven years. >> you are right. >> there's no talk of that. >> no, it's not true. i introduced it. i'm not alone.
i got almost every republican to vote for my budget. we have a balance plan that brings us up to balance in ten years. it doesn't happen overnight. i don't think we can do it faster than seven, eight, nine years. let's have the debate and agree on a premise, we can't keep running up the debts. >> let's talk about these numbers. we have to put this into perspective. these numbers come from steve rattner who was here an hour or two ago. i don't think he's voted for a lot of republicans in his life but we agree, steve and i agree. i think you will too. look at this graphs. the outstanding debt, $13.6 trillion. he says that's bad enough. then you look at the unfunded liabilities that we have talked about for a very long time. unfunded medicare liability $35 trillion. then you look at the total obligations. this is the number.
this is the take away number that americans don't understand that they need to understand. we have total obligations over the next generation of $54 trillion. i'm going to say it again. $54 trillion. right now, washington can't come to a deal to cut $2 trillion off the national debt. $54 trillion. what does that mean to us over the next generation? >> it gets considerably larger than that. it's four times our annual output. it's unsustainable. debt of 150% of their annual output. so, this is why i say, this is urgent. >> okay. >> we are operating on borrowed time. >> we are operating on borrowed time, yeah. >> and it's having a negative impact on the economy. i believe the threat of higher interest rates, higher taxes that is implicit in the deficits is presenting the job growth we
could be having otherwise, already. >> senator toomey, mika who wants the democratic power of hour has hives breaking out now because we are having a republican speak in sentences on the show. >> go ahead. we will speak to you. republicans are talking. >> oh, no. oh, no. >> it doesn't happen often in this show. >> you should have seen me with heilman, could not make it happen, but i tried. senator, obviously -- obviously, one thing that would help the economy, clarity of it. move forward, right? >> right. >> we are at the 11th hour. it's not going to be perfect. it's not going to scratch the surface. having said that, are your colleagues, your republican colleagues being difficult at the negotiating table? are they giving nothing? what are they giving?
what are they giving? >> look at what we gave. >> would you answer the question? >> please. >> did you think the vote on the paul ryan budget was easy for republicans? didn't play out well in new york. we brought it here because harry reid cynically said i'll make you guys vote on his. we did, the vast majority of us voted for it because it puts us on a sustainable path. that was not an easy vote. we see no plan from the senate democrats. the president offered a plan. there were zero votes for it. obviously not a serious plan. mike lee and i introduced a plan that gets us to a balanced budget. you can argue how we do it. we welcome that argument, but we are trying. i don't see the effort from the other side. >> the democrats are running the senate and they have a senate budget chairman that i have great respect for.
>> yeah. >> i don't see a senate budget. when is it coming out? >> harry reid told us, they are not going to do a budget. >> why? >> never mind. because he doesn't want his guys to cast votes an lay out a blueprint of what they believe in. >> we are on the 11th hour with the negotiations. a fifth one happening today. the president gave on entitlement reform and a number of other things. where have the republicans given? >> what did he give? >> he put it on the table? >> what? what did he put on the table? >> tax reforms, anything? >> i put a series of cuts, i laid out how much i think we should spend next year. i put caps on the table. we proposed a balanced budget and suggested we take a different version. the president hasn't given a budget. we hear of reforms but what are they. we have five guys in a room
behind closed doors. who knows what they are talking ability. we ought to have a budget and votes on the senate floor. >> hold on a second. let's be very clear about what he said. >> okay. >> we have five people behind closed doors negotiating. they can't tell us who stormed out of the room yesterday. let's look at who put budgets on the floor. the republicans in the house of representatives, they put a budget on the floor. the first time anybody seriously approached medicare. let me finish. the democrats won the united states senate. they will not put an actual budget on the floor. the president has, again, the president is not coming forward with another budget. when the president says he's going to put medicare and social security on the table, yes, we salute him for putting it on the table but he's done -- i have seen the specifics, you have seen specifics.
it's just words. the democrats have had -- >> no, it's not just words. >> how long has the senate been in session without a budget? >> six months this year, two years prior to that. let me make another important point. when the president talks about being willing to consider medicare and social security, it's a tough thing for republicans to do as well. republicans have already done it. they passed a budget in the house. most of us voted for it in the senate. >> senator pat toomey, i want to thank you for being on the democratic power of hour. mika, what democrat is next? >> i would like to continue with senator pat toomey. i have another question. >> are you going to ask him if we are going to pass a balanced budget? don't answer her questions.
answer mine. >> the president put thipgs on the table that go against his base and are politically dangerous for him. >> specifics? >> be quiet for a second. >> what are the specifics? >> he'll get them when the republicans come to the table. >> they have given them on the paul ryan plan which was political suicide for many republicans. what hard vote have democrats made on the debt over the past year? name one. name one vote. name one vote? they have had a year. these are all words. name one -- anybody at the table. >> you are trying to cover for a party that cares more about themselves than the country. somebody at this table name one tough vote the democrats have made on the debt. >> i think you are deflecting. you are deflecting -- >> you can't. the democrats have had a year. >> the republicans standing on
the center of the table. >> filibustering. >> make up a difference. >> sometimes it's all i have to say. i don't have an answer. it's fine. >> this is classic. this is classic. >> i want one vote. >> trying to pull in everything. >> john heilemann, give me one vote. one vote the democrats have made on the debt. just one vote. then i'll say i'm wrong. >> nope. >> you can't do it, can you? >> nope. >> they haven't put a budget out. this has never happened in mainstream media. >> i'm sure the vote on the ryan budget turned out to be a political disaster for them. i'm not sure it was a tough vote. >> if you are a senator in pennsylvania and you vote for a paul ryan medicare deal, i wouldn't have voted for,
probably. that is a dangerous vote. >> you just ask nancy pelosi. she's been celebrating that vote since it was cast. of course it's a tough vote. >> okay, senator. >> the democrats started demagoguing that. republicans were going to end the medicare. >> they were. i'm so sorry i filibustered you gentlemen. we'll be right back. >> we'll be back with hour of power after these messages.
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>> great. a new survey is finding, more happy news this morning pap new survey is finding china is replacing the united states as the world's super power. according to a pew center poll, countries surveyed 15 say china is or will become the global leader. especially wide in spread, china will eventually hold the top spot. european cite the economy, saying it's the world's economic power putting it in position to be the top super power as well. and good morning america. we'll be back. >> the happy days. >> in a moment. ♪ [ dr. ling ] i need to get the results from the m.r.i. see if the blood work is ready.
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>> if you follow -- that's so cool. >> follow on twitter all weekend -- did she win? did she win? she won! >> play-by-play. >> good, dad. >> interest, for a father to teach his daughter short play. >> a 14-year-old with weapons. we will be right back on "morning joe." by the way, mika, bad news for you. tomorrow, a few more republicans. paul ryan. >> two of them. >> yeah. >> ah. >> but we also have the reverend al sharpton for you. we shall return. "morning joe." [ female announcer ] now, give dry, damaged hair a whole new life!
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so far the gop plan is working, okay? they got buried here over a barrel and they are spanking him like a page in the senate cloakroom. obama agrees to almost $4 trillion in cuts, but then in a truly cynical move, obama pills the old washington trick of asking for something in return. but house majority leader eric cantor explains, the republicans' only concession will be "the fact we're even discussing voting for a debt ceiling increase." okay? they agree to negotiate. in return, the president gives them everything they want. it's like the old saying -- you scratch my back, i get my back scratched. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast.
as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set, new york magazine's john heilemann and steve rattner. >> and yesterday, coming out saying, listen, we don't expect it to happen. the chances are very slight that this is going to happen, but just -- oh, the chance, that this may happen, we're going to downgrade america's credit rating. >> well, put it in the credit watch to downgrade it or downgrade it if it happens. a couple things. first of all, moody's -- generally kind of high on the curve during this whole financial crisis and they took a lot of heat for that. they're now trying to be more pro active than reactive. you have a congress that refises to address this issue, what is the rating agency supposed to do other than put it on credit watch? it's not a shocker but it is another symbol of how dysfunctional things are in
washington and how hycigh the stakes, what the dangers are. >> you know a few people, not only in america but across the globe. he's a financier. >> mika says it better. >> you say international financier. >> she says it, she's got a way of saying it that special way. >> but i would think these are pretty trying times for bankers across the world. you look at ireland. a second time. of course, this has spread to italy, and we've all heard what's happened in greece, portugal. it's all across europe. it's coming to america. it's in california. it's in -- you know, 30 of the 50 states. >> so if you're interested in how markets look at this and how markets evaluate it all, right now the markets are 80%, 90% more worried about europe than the united states. they're terrified about europe. it's a scary place. there is no such thing of europe. a bunch of countries trying to get along, and thoughts not working out so great.
rightly or wrongly, the markets so far, about our debt ceiling, they believe one way or another, sooner or later we'll get the debt ceiling raised. when you watch the markets, they don't seem to be expecting a default. >> let me ask you this, if lehman brothers to cause the shock wave in the economy, what happens if an italy falls or a greece defaults, or an ireland defaults? how massive an effect would that have on america? >> potentially enormous. look, there's a big difference between greece and italy. greece has an economy 1/6 the size of california. italy, in debt after the u.s. $1.6 trillion of euro debt. $2 trillion of u.s. dollar debt outstanding, and it's a huge economy. that's why the europeans are working so hard to try to refence this, try to contain it somehow. and i think they've been appropriately criticized for, just as we were in some ways in
'08, for always being one step behind and always a little reactive and a little less proactive. what would keep a banker or banker up, europe. so chaotic. and so extreme. you said on the show many time, europe in some ways is the advance guard of what the u.s. could look like if we don't get our fiscal house in order. >> trying to do that yesterday. >> speaking of trying to do that. >> things got ugly at the white house. >> just a tad bit. today actually will be the fifth consecutive white house meeting to try to reach a deal without a resolution in sight. house speaker john boehner is comparing the talks to jell-o. saying, "some daps it's firmer than others. sometimes it's like they've left it out overnight." but sources from both parties say yesterday was the most tense meeting yet with the big spark coming from president obama and house majority leader eric
cantor. the main issue was reportedly cantor's repeated push to a for a short-term deal on the debt limit. the president refused to agree. republican aides say he said, "i have reached the point where i say enough. would ronald reagan be sitting here? i've reached my limit. this may bring my presidency down, but i will not yield on this." aides say cantor interrupted the president three different times during the meeting and the president finally says, "don't call my bluff. i'm going to the american people on this." speaking to reporters after the meeting cantor said the president lost his temper and abruptly walked off. but democratic officials dispute cantor's account. the group will reconvene this afternoon at the white house to discuss taxes. the obama administration is expected to present its plan for more revenue in order to meet the $ 2.4 trillion figure needed to reduce the deficit and raise the debt ceiling through the end of 2012.
>> so before we go on, not only did they not agree on anything, john heilemann, they can't even agree on what happened yesterday. >> well, i -- i think i have a picture. >> yes, it's true, although the -- very common, as you know washington, joe, when there's a meeting where there are two different sides in the room and no reporters present, look for people to come out of the meeting and try to spin what happened in the meeting in advantageous ways for the given side. that's not totally new. what everyone does agree on is that it was a fractious meeting, more tension in the room. no question, palpable tension between the president and eric cantor. no one disputes any of those points. the meeting was probably the least productive and most tense of the five mika mentioned. >> that's not always a bad thing. sometimes, besides separate and then calmer heads prevail and they say we can't let this
happen tomorrow. like steve said, these are serious, serious times. there was a display yesterday with mitch mcconnell and his republican base, and he got into -- let's just say he made more headlines with what he said on a radio show yesterday. >> mitch mcconnell, senate minority leader, saying allowing a default would destroy the republican grant but no question the debt ceiling will be raised. mcconnell acknowledged the backup plan unveiled this week is largely a political move. >> just like we knew shutting down the government in 1995 was not going to work for us, it helped bill clinton get re-elected. i refuse to help barack obama get re-elected, but marching republicans into a position where we have co-ownership of a bad economy. >> let's go right now, have you met mitch mcconnell? >> i have not. >> mitch mcconnell is a an interesting position. he is the head of the republican
party. senate in the year of the tea party, 2010, 2011, he's an establishment guy. i don't say that negatively. i think the administration needs an establishment guy, some establishment women in there, but isn't this the last 24, 48 hours, i don't know what your take is, but i think it has just laid that truth bare that he's got one foot in the tea party camp trying to prove he's got good street cred, but in the end, an establishment guy calling all of this friends on wall street saying it's going to be okay. we're going to do the responsible thing. put it puts him in a terrible position. >> he's in a terrible position. you know, 90% of the house members signed the no tax pledge and the plaed, you commended hip and i feel the same way, stood up and offered compromise, reasonable compromise,
leadership and you right now have two incredible polls and i think mcconnell is trying to bridge this. he gets this. he understands a default would not only be bad for the country but disastrous for the republican party politically if they would be responsible for it. >> also the shrewdist legislative tactician and negotiator of any the parties around the table. >> is he really? >> i think if you polled savvy insider, whoever they are, mitch mcconnell, john boehner, barack obama, who would you want negotiating your side if he were your lawyer in a negotiation, a lot of people would say mitch mcconnell's the guy you want. in fact, this is a rather -- what some saw as a capitulation is a clever way to try to solve this problem for them that they have, you know, trying to not get saddled with the political costs of default. trying to decouple, actually there's a genius to it, in a way. >> absolutely. one of the interesting questions about it, whether it has any chance of getting through the
house house. >> i agree. >> from outside the beltway. talk about terms of the republican -- >> this is a guy who is a tactician, works great behind the scenes. like harry reid, put him in front of cameras and he's going to say things that aren't going to help him like that, or when he said, my number one goal is defeating barack obama. you know what? that wasn't mitch mcconnell's number one. number two, number three, number ten goal, but, again, he felt he needed to say that to prove his credibility to conservatives. there are some of us, i think i'm the only one at this table, perhaps that sees the failure to raise the debt ceiling as a disaster, but i also see raising the debt ceiling this time without significant budget cuts equally at disastrous. i voted against the debt ceiling raised when they were trying to
raise it to $5 trillion because i didn't think clinton was serious. so there is -- there is sort of this force pushing -- pushing things down the road, steve rattner that says, raise the debt ceiling, raise the debt ceiling and we're at the 11th hour. i understand. but you can go back and pulls tapes from this show in early january of 2011 when i was saying, this debt ceiling's going to be serious. i talked to the freshmen. this is all they're talking about. nine months out, and here we are at the 11th hour. >> i actual aagree completely. the second worse thing not raising the debt ceiling at all is raise the debt ceiling and get nothing for it, all of this emotion and commotion, to come out of it without something that addresses extraordinary physical needs, no pressure point in the near future that would provoke such a discussion, that's a terrible outcome. >> and that's the key word.
pressure points. there is a momentum in washington to spend more. we've seen it with entitlements programs, whether it's george bush with the medicare drug benefit flag, $s 7 deal. so few pressure points where you can actually say, no, we're going to stop. we're going to slow down spending. this is a pressure point and if this passes -- one of the reasons why i thought mcconnell's plan yesterday was cynical and so bad. if this passes we will not have another one for a very long time. >> why republicans have so overplayed their hand here. they had an opportunity, under normal circumstances we all know, raising the debt creeling is a matter of course. it doesn't become a big political issue. in this kay because republicans thought they leverage and did, they decided to turn it into a big fight about policy, which is not what debt ceiling votes are. right? so the president -- he did something extraordinary in a lot
of ways. giving into republican leverage. turning this vote into something where we would have a substantive argument and put a variety of settings has put big things on the table and republicans have overplayed their hand only in the sense, in the sense they have been so intransigent on considering anything that amounts to any revenue increases. willing to do just a little bit, make a small concession, they could have achieve add huge victory for their cause. >> yesterday we had pat buchanan. >> uh-huh. >> i think some people would say he's conservative. and john kasich agree with me that we could all go to a respective bases, mine back when i was in congress, buchanan's when he was running for president and say we're going to close these tax loopholes. there's no reason why warren buffett should pay less in taxes than -- >> okay. i have a question f--
>> and republicans didn't call the president's buff. i will just say, would have been fascinating to see whether the president was serious about doing anything about medicare and social security, because i think republicans could have called his bluff on that, and the democrats' bluff, and i think they would have found a lot of smoke and mirrors, but they didn't do that. so now they're in big trouble. >> let me put john heilemann in a very uncomfortable situation. >> oh, no. you like that. >> and explain to me what we all know, i'm looking at headlines that willie is reading. drama level rises, about what happened in the media? the dynamics between the personalities of this president versus an eric cantor, for example, who we've had on the show. i like him very much but have been frustrated at time as sort of the -- well what is it jand what is it that could have led to an impasse in the room, maybe the president walking out. i doubt he lost his temper. okay. i'm just saying. >> oh, come on. why do you doubt that?
>> i really doubt that. >> seriously? come on. i'm sure he lost his temper. >> you think he lost his temper? >> he's lost his temper but i think he was pretty frustrated and said, all right. i'm done here. i'm going upstairs that is an extreme version of probably what happened. what is the thing about the two personalities that probably didn't click? >> i thought you were going to ask me something actually awkward. >> she's trying to insult eric cantor without insulting him. >> no, i'm not. i like him a lot. he's being difficult, and you know it. >> no. i think everyone -- many people, i wouldn't say -- this is not just true in the white house. this is true among a lot of senators in the republican party. look at eric cantor as the problem and look at him as the problem on a variety of fronts. not just in terms of what he represents in terms of the part of the republican caucus in the house that is totally, refuses to consider revenue increases but also as being a guy who is
not necessarily handled himself in these negotiations in a way they consider kosher. and by that i mean, you know, he has been circulating a document that has, from the biden negotiations that has spending cuts in it that -- to his republican colleagues that he claims these spending cuts were agreed to and if you're the negotiator you shouldn't be passing documents around from the negotiations. if you're the guy who's supposed to be like in good faith bargaining, shouldn't be doing that. a lot of ways in which he's conducting himself not seen as being helpful but a little childish. seen as being a little self-serving. he has built up some bad will on the part of other people in these negotiations and i think the president's frustrated. iy think there be republicans in the senate who feel he's more part of the problem than the solution as well. >> at the end of the day, the
fundamental problem, eric cantor and the vast majority of the house republicans so dug in, so inflexible, so totally unwilling to compromise, how do you do a deal with people who basically say, it's my way or the highway? how does that work in a political system. um next, chuck todd joins us on set also. an exclusive first look at the new issue of "time" magazine. plus, police dogs doing a better job of finding explosives than the tsa's airport scanners? >> give us a dog we'll find that bomb before you find the bomb. taking a beating over security. first, the latest on the heat with bill karins. >> thanks, mika. just shout-out by chuck. pretty cool. as far as temperatures go, very warm. sunny conditions. beautiful weather for us to talk about. what a morning. what a beautiful day it's going to be throughout the mid-atlantic, ohio valley, great
lakes, new england. rain and thunderstorms yesterday, today dry, today is sunny. blue skies. deep blue. that means humidity is low. retreating off the east coast and moved to the middle of the country with setting up camp and not going anywhere any time soon. today, 100 from san antonio to dallas. oklahoma city will look like this as we get to the weekend. sunday, 108. possibly 110 by monday. incredible heat returning for the middle of the country. not what they need. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ jerry ] i'm a grandfather, a retired teacher, and i count on social security. here's what i'm not... a pushover. right now, some in washington want to make a deal cutting the social security and medicare benefits we worked for. with billions in waste and loopholes, how could they look at us?
does the prime minister now agree with me that it is an insult tolt family, rebecca brooks, news editor at the time is still at her post at "news international." >> i've made clear she was right to resign, that resignation should have been accepted. there needs to be root and broad change at this entire organization. >> can the prime minister tell us what happened to that significant information that was given to his chief of staff? >> if it turns out he lied, it won't just be that he shouldn't have been in government. it will be that he should be prosecuted, but i do believe, mr. speaker, we must stick to the principle that you are innocent until proven guilty. >> he just doesn't get it. >> 24 past the hour. joining us now, nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of
the daily rundown, chuck todd. here to reveal the latest issue. gave it away. kind of the story of the world right now. katherine? >> it is. that's right. it's the story that keeps giving and i think it's going to keep on giving for quite some time to come, we're just at the beginning, really. >> how a tabloid meltdown threatens rupert murdoch and his media empire. what are your reporters finding and you finding in terms of the ripple effects of this scandal, which seem to be never ending. >> well, i mean, it's one of these things, there are two main questions, really. david cameron asked one of them. it's the, how did we get here, question, and the other question, and, in a way the more important question asks, in my reporting by, of all people, the actor hugh grant, he emerged as a very interesting campaigner on
princeton issues is, will we really see change at this point? there's then, of course of course, the whole issue what this means for the murdoch empire, but on the political point specifically, this is a story about something where a lot of people knew that things were wrong, and instead of dealing with them, they continued to, in some ways, in collusion, sounds like a strong word, but that's really what it was, and there were a whole series of reasons for that. what i've done in this piece is i've answered the question, how did we get here? i mean, i've answered it insofar as it's possible to do that. of course, there are now two police inquiries and there's a judicial inquiry coming. so we will get more and more flesh on this, if you like, but it's an extraordinary story, because you have all the different pillars of the establishment who should be looking after, you know, keeping each other to account.
and instead, they're all working to cover up what is essentially a story of corruption. i agree, innocent until proven guilty, but in the more general sense, this was about propagating a lie in public life and it's -- >> let me ask you, catherine, does this, somebody asked this question around the table. do we really think that as competitive the british tabloids are, do we really think it was only murdoch's newspapers that did this? does this open up a much bigger can of worms, so to speak? >> it does. i mean, there is a particular series of reasons for the focus on the "news of the world" which was one of murdoch's two tops until he shuttered last weekend. the reason for the focus on "news of the world" when david
cameron came into downing street he appointed his director of communications andy, the former editor of the "news of the world" and so it became a very delicious story for journalists over here to see what they could prove, because he became a proxy, if you like, for the new government, and that is why -- that is one reason the story has been so focused on "news of the world." the other reason is that the initial prosecution back in 2006, when a journalist actually imprisoned in 2006. the royal editor of the "news of the world" and a private detective. at the time the police said it was just these two people. they didn't investigate further. in fact, what we're finding is that in the paperwork of the private detective that they seized back then there were 3,817 names of people who were
potentially hacked. so those are the two -- those are the reasons why the focus is on "news of the world." however, i would say that if this story stops at "news of the world" then justice will not have been done. i mean, just in mind reporting for this piece i took to a lot of public figures who are still too scared of being -- tabloids, to wish to be identified and told me hair-raising stories about things that had happened to them at the hands of the british tabloids, and it was definitely not just "news of the world." >> certainly could tilt the whole culture. catherine, thank you. the you issue of "time," of course, "scandal." >> and a fascinating statement from peter king yesterday, that of homeland security. a guy that obviously knows every morning -- >> on his front doorstep. >> the "new york post" on his
frons door step making this quote more fascinating. >> investigate it find out what the facts are. a lot has come out about hacking. we have reports they were hacking into phones after 9/11, and to 9/11 victims and since so much else has come out i think it's important that this be investigated and tracked down. if it turns out not to be true, that's great. on the other hand, there's too much out there now for this not to be investigated nchtsds a republican from long island calling on an investigation in america. >> when it comes to peter king, he usually does jump on as a media story. the question i have here that i'm scratching my head. what has murdoch done that tmz hasn't done and why does what tmz does, is legal, but what rupert murdoch does, it is illegal? what i'm saying is, is this going to -- would this be the beginning of the end of what -- basically the horrendous nature
of tmz, national enquirer, the road they went down in our world does that put them, does that maybe put them in a place that -- more vile, reviled than now? >> one of the key differences, as catherine was pointing out, you will never see the work of the ed editor of tmz, they won't become the white house press secretary. >> never say never. >> yeah. and it is -- the really huge difference between america and britain is this, that the tightness of the establishment in britain is just -- it's just such a different thing. i lived and worked in london for a number of years and people here can't really get their head around what a small incestuous world it is. a much smaller world where a small city runs, media, all went to one of two colleges and everybody knows each other. in this case, the complicity of
the establishment, the political establishment, the journalistic establishment, the law enforcement establishment, hoe they are all in one way or another were in on this is in some ways the bigger story than murdoch himself. it was the culture that created this entire environment. >> exactly. >> chuck, another "time" article. "conspiracy of two." >> we got the wrong guy. >> oh, it's cantor now. >> actually, he's on the other side. >> exactly. so let's talk about what's going on on capitol hill. they're back and forth. we've been saying here, republicans need to step forward with a deal. at the same time, the democrats haven't put a budget together. this is a mess. how does it get solved? >> first of all, you do have this and you know this better than anybody. it usually looks the darkest right before they finally come to a deal. you do wonder, like, okay. these rumors, a big camp david
weekend, everybody's getting mad. that's the optimist side of that. but the other thing is, this is essentially, yes, i think boehner and obama trust each other, but luke russert had a great analogy. it valley the israelis and palestinian. when sharon and arafat trauuste each other, but nobody trusted the other guy. for instance, you got boehner, all of this, saying, well, make the president put this social security proposal on the table. make him say it. make him say it. and democrats telling the president, make him say the bush tax cuts. make them say it. ultimately that's really what this is subpoena both boehner and obama said they were willing to do it neither wants to put it on paper, because both of them are worried the other guy will just snatch it back right away. that's ultimately the stalemate here. >> of course, in fighting,
in-fighting inside the republican party. john boehner, you've got to ask, if john boehner can't take control at this critical juncture, eric cantor, who seems to be undercutting him every step of the way and the republican caucus, when does he take control? >> does he ever? a senior leadership aide, i asked, i was saying, compare who's a veteran at this. compare '95 to now. and this person said to 3450e, in '95, we actually had members when they went home, we had two sources of information. cnn, the only cable news channel in 1995, and they had one guy on talk radio who was driving the conservative point of view. rush. that was it. now, as this source said to me, they're all informed. okay. now, some of the information's not good information, but there's no chance that -- under that, could anybody preside? could anybody lead this conference with this sort of
pushback? everybody wanting to put the blame on boehner. why can't he bring his caucus together? you know, they're really of their own mind in a way. and to say i encourage people top see there's a joe were youish u2, on the screen, angry, a new freshman member, tea party republican from illinois. watch and say to yourself, how does john boehner handle that? this guy is just angst gri and mad at the president, thinks he's a liar. how does he -- he's not alone. there are a lot of members of congress who believe that. >> the other big difference between '95, joe, you know this is true, is that newt gingrich was the leader of that revolution. >> often the problem. >> yes. those freshmen members came in in '94 and they were newt's people. you know, boehner was a guy who was, not a leader of the revolution that swept into power in 2010. he was the guy who happened to be there while the revolution happened out in the country and all of these new freshmen came there, no attachment to jane
boehner. not their ideological leader, not their field general had not created this moment. he just happened to be there. >> exactly. gingrich had an operation, campaign schools, gingrich, when people gave you checks, they "damages" newt wa -- newt wanted to come here and give you a check. it was newt's party. great point. it's not john boehner's party. you got the republican establishment and some people in the media establishment actually saying john boehner's surprising. he's trying to be responsible. that doesn't -- >> eric cantor, the man of the moment. the question, who does he -- they either cut the deal with him and he brings everybody along. this is it. it's all about eric cantor now. where does he go, what does he do, what does he think the end game is? and does somehow his ambition align with the ambition of a deal. i don't know.
>> so why isn't eric cantor speaker of the house? will eric cantor be speaker of the house in 2012? >> providing -- i don't know. maybe he is. >> to even survive this, john boehner. in the end. >> if he gets through this and the house is re-elected, of course he does. it's like the answer to -- you think you though what's going to happen, you just don't know how to get there. >> who do you have -- >> the tea party guys, might be a member of the establishment some day. jason. republican, you know, the guy challenging orrin hatch. he called the mcconnell idea, wow, stupid. that's how he pleaded it. there you go. >> okay. >> thank you. up next, the long lines, aggressive pat-downs, the security breaches. the tsa has complaints from the public. yesterday it was congress' turn. also, business before the bell, with simon hobbs. we'll be right back. woman: saving for our child's college fund was getting expensive.
details of the contentious hearing on the hill. >> reporter: with tactics already making it one of the most ridiculed government agencies, members of congress interrupted and talked to the top tsa administrator even ac argues amtrak police dogs would do a better job than the airport scanners. >> give me one of his dogs and we'll find that bomb before you find that bomb. >> reporter: the tsa acknowledged 25,000 security breaches since the agency was founded in the months after 9/11. that's over ten years at 450 airports. on average, 5 1/2 breaches we are airport per year. everything from a misplaced bag to doors left open and passengers walking into secure area, but also more serious scenarios. like the man who recently flew across country on an old boarding pass and expired i.d. the stun gun found on a jet pt blue flight last week, or fake weapons regularly smuggled tlud
by tsa auditors while think conduct at every airport every year, it said it only conducted joint inspections with the fbi at 17% of the highest risk. >> we will not get to 100% of 450 airports with the fbi. >> the idea you haven't conducted joint vulnerability assessments in 83% of our nation's airports is not acceptable. >> reporter: the former security director foreisrael airport urged the tsa to shift its focus to dangerous people more than dangerous weapons. >> the tech thonology is not go enough to raise the level of detecti detection. >> reporter: saying the tsa needs to stop treating babies and the elderly as extreme security threats. >> first of all, identify the risk then you can adjust the search. >> that was nbc's tom costello. we have new weekly jobless numbers out. a quick check on those before
the bell. c nbc's simon hobbs live at the new york stock exchange. >> we have better than expected jobless figures. unemployment claims fell by 22,000 last week to 405,000. they are still very elevated, though. that's probably the bigger picture. we've also had retail sales ticking slightly higher. quite good news at the margin and np morgan came through with better results as well. the market isn't running with it. we might get a 30-point bounce at the open on the dow. the elephant in the room europe as we wind our way through that. whatever noise from pawlenty or bachmann, the market is very worried that they're playing with fire and of course, moody's now putting the united states on negative watch for its aaa rating because of what might not occur. what the solution we may not get in those debt talks, as you know so well. >> let's talk about the murdoch fallout. what's happening?
>> the latest we have from the uk is that murdoch's right-hand woman in the uk, rebecca will appear before parliament tuesday. the game is now, speaking with people from the labor department, create a link from unquestion wrong doing and thos that actually ran the paper. the bake question what did you do to check criminality? i spoke to senator mendez in new jersey, the noises and activity we have here in trying to nail down exactly what happened with potentially the 9/11 victims and i think you were discussing this earlier. there's a number of now advancements on that level with the sec and the doj and so on and so forth. >> all right. simon, a lot going on. thank you so much as always for being with us. >> all right. coming up next, why light bulbs are for some becoming a sign of government interference in people's lives.
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welcome back. in 2007, congress passed and president bush signed a law phasing ow incandescent light bulbs. the official phaseout begins next january with an effort to reverse the law in congress next week. as kevin tibbles explains, some are still opposed to the forced switch. in one state, they're not giving up the fight. >> how you doing on light bulbs today? >> from his lighting store in fort worth, john potterson take as dim view of the upcoming ban on traditional incandescent bulbs. >> i believe americans ought to
have a choice, and be able to have a free choice to decide what they want to do themselves. >> reporter: so patterson is aimed at circumventing the ban, allowing them to be sold in texas, authored by state representative george lavender. >> we're tired the federal government micromanaging our lives. >> reporter: many love the bulb invented 440 years ago. >> call it an edison base or medium. >> the other one? >> compact fluorescent light. a 15 watt. >> a lot brighter. >> does anybody sap it's a little harsh? >> well if they're too harsh, you can down wattage. >> reporter: the new bulbs are more energy efficient. >> the old light bulbs are electric heaters that give off a little bit of light. 90% of the energy is given off by heat. >> reporter: the new bulbs also
contain small amounts of mercury. >> if i dropped this light bulb we would have to evacuate the house of representatives according to the epa light bulb law. >> reporter: one group opposes the ban with a video dealing with the contraband of the future. >> candescent light bulb. >> reporter: but problem with selling incandescent light bulbs with the words made in texas stamped on them. there aren't any light bulbs of
any kind made in texas, but then a light bulb went off in george lavender's head. >> if we attract light bulb manufacturers to the state of texas, it's a great job. >> reporter: the message in texas, don't mess with the light bulbs in the lone star state. >> by the way, michele bachmann said, quote, in a recent "time" magazine. >> hold on. >> "if i'm willing to -- i will allow you to buy any light bulb you one." >> there you go. >> thank you, michele bachmann
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hey, kids, it's time to talk about what we learned today. willie, what did you learn? >> emmy nomen apgss, "mad men" with 19. >> whoa. look at this. what lesson did we learn? smoking cigarettes. >> no, no. >> on air. >> stupid. >> that's it. >> exactly. . what did you learn? >> mika's extraordinarily adaptable. there was a republican on the show today and she romm rolled with it. >> the first republican in, what, 15 years? >> first of all -- >> impressive.
>> i learned when we bring a republican on the democratic hour, it makes me very cranky, but we had a lot of fun nap was fun. admit it. >> i'd like to issue an apology for filibustering joe. oh, my gosh. can you imagine? >> that is funny. >> well -- >> i learned from joe griffin -- >> i'm going to sit down now. >> you say to the grand canyon? >> wrap it up. wrap it up. >> that is unbelievable. >> all right. >> also steely dan is playing september 19th at the beacon. >> five, six nights. >> joe -- joe. >> what. >> chuck's right there. >> i know. hey, chuck, can we come over and sing some steely dan? can we sing? [ inaudible ] no. i don't want to know. all right. >> willie, if it's way too early what time is it, man? >> see you back here