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tv   The Rachel Maddow Show  MSNBC  May 6, 2011 9:00pm-10:00pm EDT

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they were legal. if we legalize heroin tomorrow, we will use it. i don't want to use heroin, so i need these laws. >> i never thought heroin would get applause in south carolina. >> the last time there was a wide open race on the republican side was four years ago. four years ago this week, ten candidates, john mccain, mitt romney, ron paul, mike huckabee and a lot of others all turned out for the first debate. four years later, it is ron paul again, also herman cain and johnson, that's it. he may have stolen the show to legalize heroin, he was not, it should be noted, the biggest hit of the night. take a look at who won the focus group afterwards.
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>> 29 of the most important people in america sitting behind me now. let's go right to them. who won the debate. how many think her man cain won? we can stop right there. i want a word or praise to describe him. >> a breath of fresh air. >> common sense. >> how many walked in here with herman cain as your number one choice? one of you. how many of you are walking out of here with him as your choice. this is unprecedented. >> former ceo of a mafia themed pizza chain runs away with the first race. >> i haven't held office before. i asked people, those in washington d.c., they have held public office before. how is that working for you. we have a mess.
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how about sending a problem solver to the white house. >> herman cain, the break-out sensation in south carolina. while he won the focus group last night, ron paul seems to have won the money race since the debate. he's taken in over $1 million in donations since last night's debate. there's news he will open up, officially, a campaign office in iowa on tuesday. heading into the debate last night, the expectation was it was tim pawlenty's debate to lose. he was the only viable candidate among the five on stage. as you saw earlier, herman cain won the fox news focus group. did tim pawlenty come in second? >> we had a clear winner in cain. who do they think came in second. who would be your second choice
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tonight? how many say rick santorum? >> the one viable guy does not poll as first of second and there were only five people there. the post debate critical reviews sort of matched the focus group's feeling. "the los angeles times," the event might have played to the advantage of tim pawlenty but it didn't exactly work out that way. "the washington post," pawlenty had trouble breaking through. politico, the low-key minnesotan failed to dominate the arena. failure to dominate is a cruel diagnosis. it was not any particular thing about any one candidate. rather, what is starting to seem like the divided heart of the republican party. huge cheers when ron paul was asked about gay marriage.
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he says he doesn't want government involved at all. big cheers when he said that. also big cheers for rick saying anyone who rules out what government ought to be doing. big cheers for that, too. which is it, fielding a candidate against barack obama, are you rick santorum republicans or ron paul republicans? all the republican party branding is very ron paul, even if the republican establishment doesn't like ron paul himself, they like the sound of his principles. get government off your back, right? it's how the party is trying to market themselves right now. look at what they are doing in office. take the state of florida, today. the new republican governor is expected to sign into law a handful of bills that are sitting on his desk. is this small government stuff? or is this big government stuff?
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you tell me. the first one is a -- forced by the state of florida to have a medically unnecessary ultrasound, first. it forces the doctors to read to her the procedure, a script about the procedure written by the state of florida no matter what the doctor believes. mandatory drug tests for a class of florida residents whether or not they are suspected of using drugs. anyone receiving temporary state aid. they will be forcibly drug tested by the state and forced to pay for it. third bill, a bill that punishes school children for wearing their pants lower than the government wants them to. it regulates public school pants height. a state government dress code for children about your pants.
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is this get government off your back or big intrusive. this is a 24-hour snapshot of life in the republican party now. legalizing heroin getting huge applause. the man going for it, cleaning up. then government mandated drug testing and medically unnecessary ultrasounds. government mandated dress codes. the heart of the republican party is so divided, they cannot decide whether to cheer for legal, hard drugs or laws about the height of your pants. this is going to be an excellent year of covering republican politics. 50 billion network devices will roam the earth. that's seven devices per person. this will change how we work in ways we've never before imagined. what do you need to secure your people, their devices, and your business?
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as part of my on goupg quest to get republicans to talk to me on this show, i interviewed meghan mccain, young republican and daughter of senator john
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mccain. it was soon after the shooting after gabrielle giffords and it turned to gun politics, then this happened. gun control is getting in discussion again. you were a strong second amendment supporter. >> i am. and a member of the nra. >> my first date with susan was at a ladies day on the range. i am proud of that. like there is a tiny bit of common ground on this. >> you can come with me to the next nra convention. i'll take you with me and see what it's about. how about that? >> i accept. i say what i mean and i mean what i say. so, nra convention, me and meghan mccain. here we come, that's next. [ male announcer ] if you think "heroes" are only in movies,
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we're america's natural gas. the smarter power today. learn more at hi. >> hi. how are you? thanks for coming. >> i told you i would. >> welcome to the nra convention. you are my first official date to nra. a lot of people think i'm a fake republican. this is when i get really conservative. it's by far my most conservative part. >> in terms of rights or enthusiasm? >> both. i believe in the right to bear arms. i want to protect myself. it's one of the main principle that is keep me republican. a lot of democrats are here as well. >> you and i talked about some gun rights restrictions that you think are sane.
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>> jump right into this. >> yeah. you say this is a very conservative thing about you but you, like dick cheney, support looking at the high capacity magazines. >> i'm not an official nra spokesperson, but i have friends who work in law enforcement and there really isn't a huge need to sell assault rifles. i think it's not -- as guns go, it's not really the gun i would use to protect myself at home necessarily and i am for, as dick cheney is for reanalyzing and walking around the street with an m-4. >> or with the assault rifle ban, this came up. it's like 12 or 14 rounds. >> right. >> ahe had a handgun, not a
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semiautomatic rifle. >> baa semiautomatic handgun with the extended capacity magazine. it expired when the weapons ban expired. that particular thing about how many bullets you can put in a clip, that's a very controversial thing. the nra does not want to ban high capacity magazines. i think a lot of nra members would be okay with that. >> i think a lot of members are okay with it. i am okay with it. the problem they have and some of my friends, a girlfriend of mine is where does it stop? if you start banning this gun, where does it end? they are going to ban all guns. i understand the if you give an inch, they will take a mile mentality. i don't think it's the worst thing ever. when dick cheney is for it, it's not the most conservative thing ever. >> in politics, you have either
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second amendment or antisecond amendment. >> tell me about your experience? >> i think we are similar on this. gun rights are talked about in a stupid way. you don't buy the slippery slope argument. i agree. i think you can talk about how many bullets can be in the magazine. whether you should have an m-4 on the street without saying you want to be in people's homes without taking away what they use to hunt or protect themselves or target shooting. >> my perspective and why i felt to be a new face or another face because you don't see a lot of young women talking about this. i'm a single woman and i'm 5'1" -- >> not in those shoes. >> i'm not strong.
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i have taken self-defense. i'm no good. i have friends that feel safer. >> do you think there's a risk to having a gun in your home? >> not if you take courses. i'm for taking the right safety classes as well. >> it doesn't guarantee it's going to be pointed at the right person. >> you have to take safety courses and classes to understand how to use your gun in the appropriate way. my problem is when it becomes this, you own a gun, you are going to go out and kill everyone and kill people. i understand the gun legislation laws. it's a very complicated issue. i don't know. i start getting cringy when i hear a tragedy happened and it's pointed at nra. >> i made my case about that. >> i hope i'm making my case. >> you are. with the tucson shooting, the
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person to blame is the shooter. if he only had ten shots, if the nra hadn't pushed for the assault weapons ban to expire, including the ban on the clips. >> me and dick cheney, dick cheney and i are both for this. >> as an nra member, they are not going what you want. they are the people -- >> nothing i'm involved with does exactly what i want ever. gun laws tend to penalize gun owners, not criminals. we need to do a better job getting criminals off the street. he was kicked out of school for a mental illness. he was not allowed in the military. he should have been flagged a long time ago. >> he gets kicked out of the military. >> kicked out by the recruiters. you cannot join because of your drug abuse. they don't know about the mental illness. why didn't that go into the federal background test. >> i agree.
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>> that's a chuck shumer proposal. >> when you give an inch, they are worried he's going to take a mile. >> that's my issue with the nra. my issue is not that people have a right to keep and bear arms, everything is if you give them an inch, they will take a mile. you can't have anything. you can't close the gun show loophole. >> you can buy a gun the day you are present? very popular. >> the nra agrees there should be a background check for buying guns. they also agree, if you don't want to go through it, buy your gun at a shop. how does that make sense? it's not a give an inch and take a mile. it's good policy. >> i want to hear your experience with guns. i didn't know, i assumed you had no experience ever.
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>> i fired a tank round once. oh, i have so much to tell you. i wonder, if because the nra is so dominant and because, as a member, like you are saying, they don't support -- they don't necessarily support your own ideas about gun rights policies, would it be better if they weren't the dominant force? >> the nra is 140 years old. this is where you go. >> they just dominate. they get their way on every policy issue they want. >> what's interesting to me is dick cheney comes out now saying these things. at the time, he could have made changes when he was in office. it's a little taboo, what i'm telling you about, it's not popular here. i don't have a problem with it but i don't own a semiassault rifle. >> the thing about the magazines is there's two people on the nra
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board who manufacture those high capacity magazines. that's exhausting to me. you are on the board and have a material interest. it's the policy position of this group that they can't exist. >> is there anything you like about the nra? >> i like the gun safety stuff that they do. they have really nice iconography, their fonts. i mean, like i don't have any objection to anybody joining. obviously, they are a successful organization and i admire them for doing what they do. i think they are -- i think they have a strangle hold over policies, issue a policy in this country that is unhelpful. i think we have dumb policies because of them. >> we have dumb policies when it comes to a lot of things. >> yeah, but the nra decides what happens with guns.
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they are super, super, rich. >> virginia tech happened when i was in college. i remember how scary it was. i agree with better background checks. >> closing the loopholes. >> i have no problem with that. i don't want crazy people to have access to guns, no. >> they just said this week, maybe yesterday, that more than 200 people on the terrorism watch list were legally cleared to buy guns last year. it's not like they snuck through. if you are on the terrorism watch list, you can buy a gun. >> i don't think law-abiding citizens should be penalized in the meantime. >> let's start with small things, if you are on the terrorist watch list, you can't buy a gun. can we agree on that? >> yeah. >> i think if we polled everyone here, they would agree with us. >> i would never say that, ever. >> i know. but your perspective on this and
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most nra members are more rational than the organization. >> i don't think it's necessarily true, but you are arguing very well. my place in this, culturally was not foreign or weird to me growing up. getting older and going different places, it's seen in a negative light. i'm 26 and all the things that, you know, liberal america sees sometimeses, i lived in new york and l.a. now, it's not a place where people feel their values are criticized in the wrong way. >> here's the thing, i accept all the circumstances and i have the opposite conclusion. i think i have the sunny side of the street conclusion, which is weird because i'm always the cynic. i go fishing every weekend. >> you do? >> i do.
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you enjoy guns as the machines they are and the stress relief they are. i think it's cool they are manufactured in the united states. i enjoy firing them and doing whatever i can. and we agree in the ways gun laws could be tightened up without crimping their sense of value. or without harming public safety. so, that seems like a reasonable ground to move forward. but, the nra makes that so there's a divide between us even though all those things are in common. >> chuck schumer is getting in this. he's not the person i would have him speaking against this. i guess dick cheney kind of did. >> yeah. that's true. maybe dick cheney will lead us. >> possible. it's possible. dick cheney. dick cheney can lead us. it's a very unpopular idea. what we are saying right now is
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very unpopular. i don't own a semiassault rifle and i have friends that work in law enforcement. it's plain unnecessary to have. this is where we agree. >> we agree on a lot of this. if we can agree on a lot of this, we should be able to make better policy as a country. we have solved it. ♪ [ male announcer ] in 2011, at&t is at work, building up our wireless network all across america.
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the nra held their
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convention this year in pittsburgh, a city that is way more beautiful than it gets credit for and way worse traffic than it gets credit for with 70,000 extra people in town for the nra. one councilman in pittsburg was not that excited about it. he said they should have held it across town in his neighborhood to see what the policy they support does to real cities and families like his. my look through the other side from one of the most dangerous in the country. impressive resume. thank you. you know what, tell me, what makes peter, peter ?
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councilman, first of all, thank you for the offer of the guided tour. i really, really appreciate this time. >> it's my pleasure. >> the nra is holding their convention in pittsburgh for the second time in ten years. in 2004 and 70,000 people at the convention center downtown. tell me about your district, district nine in pittsburgh and
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the relationship to downtown. >> i represent the eastern part of the city of pittsburgh. i represent the poorest area of the city of pittsburgh, unfortunately, the most crowd infected, homicide and drug infested area of pittsburgh, the lowest economic standards and it is unfortunately, a very difficult place. it is a place that has been plagued by violence, by gun violence. i, myself, my whole life has been the consequence of gun violence. my aunt was murdered. my mother had a nervous breakdown and a mental illness she never recovered from. my wife's father was shot. my wife's mother, my mother-in-law was shot and killed. her brother killed someone and spent 20 years in the pen ten
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chair. i have adopted his son. i went into the ministry to figure out this thing. all of my life has been affected with violence. my wife's children have been shot and killed. children of my church were shot and killed. i ran for council because i couldn't take the shootings anymore. the ease in which you can buy a gun is frightening. you can buy a gun from a gas station. why do individual citizens need ak-47s, m-16s, ar-14s, three and four of them? these guns are not made here. they are brought here through purchasers, gun shows. it's turned my community into either a combination of the old wild west or a ghost town. it's killed the businesses and the residential community. the area i represent lost almost
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75% of the population since 1968. it's devastating. almost all of it leads directly or indirectly to gun violence. >> what options do you feel like the city of pittsburgh has? what options do you have to reduce gun violence? >> it makes it sadder. the hold the nra has on the state legislature that we are prohibited from passing any responsible gun ownership laws. >> when we fight nationwide about the gun laws, one of the things that is commonly observed is the cities have different needs than rural areas but the state legislation, the state law in pennsylvania says you can't have a specific law in pittsburgh that doesn't apply to the rest of the state. you can't solve your own city-based problems. it has to be uniform for the state. >> yeah. mayor bloomberg said, when you
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hear the word duck in a rural community, when you hear duck in an urban community, you are talking getting down and being safe. i have in my community, i have mothers who have children, they have children sleeping in the bathtu bathtubs. their children are playing in basements, won't let them on the streets because of the gun violence. certainly, the urban part of pittsburgh is completely different than the rural communities in the middle of pennsylvania. we absolutely need common sense gun laws because of the gun shows and the lax laws we have in pennsylvania. it's a crime. it should be a crime for the way guns are flowing inhe communities where i represent. >> you see that as the influence of the nra on the state legislature? >> absolutely, they control the state legislature. that's why there's no responsible handgun legislation passed in pennsylvania. i wish the nra was having their
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convention in homewood to see firsthand the effect of their lobbying on my community. in many ways, their lobbying has sentenced my community to a death sentence. >> if you, in homewood, could come up with your own local gun related policies, what do you think would work that could be enforceable that you could imagine not only being a smart policy in terms of goals, but being enforceable? >> i don't see any need to have assault rifles in the city of pittsburgh. there is no way i would ever allow there to be assault rifles. that's number one. that has to go. one of the three pittsburgh police officers were killed by a mentally ill man with an assault rifle. certainly, there has to be stronger background checks for people with guns. third of all, i would eliminate
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any guns coming into the community from gun shows and things like that. whether or not it's enforceable is a different question. certainly, we need to find a way to remove the guns off the streets. we have no statewide laws and handgun prohibition. a purchaser can buy guns, sell them illegally and they are on the streets and there's no way of tracing it back to the original owner. >> let me make sure i understand that. it's one of the things pittsburgh tried. if i'm a purchaser, i can buy guns in my name and giving them to other people and they are used in crimes. when the weapon gets traced back to me because i am the owner of record, i say i lost it. >> i lost it, don't know what happened to it. >> the lost and stolen requirement would require to notify government as soon as you
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know it's gone. >> right. >> pittsburgh tried to do that as a city. >> right. it's never been enforced because we are prohibited from doing it by the state legislature. we are coming into homewood now. when you come in, you come past a woman and her sister walking home from the library. two young men 15 and 16 shot and killed her on the way home from the library on the left hand side of the street. as soon as we come into the entrance. >> was the motive robbery? >> no. they were aiming at somebody else. they were trying to shoot a guy leaving the gas station. they shot and killed her. we are going toward the business district where there's been so many shootings. >> are there any significant employers in homewood at all? >> no. >> no significant business?
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>> no. there's some mom and pop stores, gas stations. some non-profits. no significant employment. the funeral homes are doing great business, unfortunately. they are not drug trade. they are killing each other over girls, over colors, not colors territory, streets. mostly silly killings. >> that are -- those are the sort of things that might result in violence but maybe not death except guns. >> if you have guns on the streets, a first fight turns into a shooting. guns on the streets, hard feelings in a moment turns into a shooting. i's instant, in a moment. >> is there an expectation from young men that they will be armed? if you are a man of a certain age, you will have a weapon on you? >> most of the young boys, if
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they don't have a weapon on them, we think they do. this is the chicken and waffle place here. this was a thriving business when two gunmen, three masked gunmen came in and shot a young girl and young man in a wheelchair. killed them in that business right there. it's never been opened since the shooting. she died. it was sad. same thing with this restaurant that just closed here. this was kentucky fried chicken. up until a few years ago. another business just bought it and closed it. but, right here in the drive-through, a 15-year-old boy was shot and killed right here in the drive-through. when he was shot and killed here, they closed the kfc and then there was a family dollar next door that was about to
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open. they put the family dollar store up, built a brand-new building for it. the boy was shot, family dollar pulled out, pulled their sign out and the building has been vacant since. >> the business owners are closing because they believe customers will not come here because it's too scary. >> whether customers come or not, employees are in danger. they have a reason for it. because just a few years before this, we had a drugstore in homewood. the manager of the drugstore, which i'll take you past, was making a night deposit, no, a day deposit. may they picked him up, robbed him and killed him. then the drugstore closed. we lost our own drugstore. i'll take you past the former rite aid. it was a subway at one point. it's sad. when i grew up, every vacant lot
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you see was a business, was -- this had two bakeries. grocery store. this was our business district. now, it's just empty. it's just nothing here. all the stores are closed. the beauty salons are closed. the stores are closed. this is the rite aid where they killed the manager of the store. they killed the manager, the company closed the building and it's stayed like this ever since. >> what would it take to get business back to homewood? >> you have to stop the shootings. you have to stop the shootings. you can't have these type of shootings in broad daylight. you can't have these executions and expect businesses to invest. they are not going to. this is the community college. the local branch. the only really one in an african-american community west of philadelphia. i teach there. i teach a class there. >> is this community college an anchor here? >> one of the anchors for the
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young people. but, of course, some students won't come here because of where it's at. when my son was shot 11 times, i heard the shots. i didn't realize it was him, but i heard the shots. i hear the shots at night. it's unbelievable and it's -- no one should have to live this way. no one should have to live this way. the only reason that people will say that it's okay to have these guns because they don't live where i live and don't experience what i experience. they have not seen their family members shot. if you see it once or twice, it will change your life forever. if you could talk to wayne lapierre and the big wigs at the nra and what's happened here in your community, how would you put it to them?
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>> i have watched people who i love, my own family, my immediate family, my mother-in-law lived with me when she was died, she was shot. i have watched them walk out the door and not come home. kids who grew up in my church who i baptized, ate pizza and candy. i have had to do their funerals. young kids, 15 and 16-year-olds who could not save their lives, became expert shooters and killers. these guns are killing people. we are not hunting deer. there's no quail and buffalo here. we are not hunting rabbits and raccoons here. these guns are killing people who i love. what will you do if guns were killing the people you love?
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would you let them continue? tell me how many people in your family have been shot and killed by guns? maybe if you lost four or five family members, maybe you would see it from my position. for them, it's fun. for me, it's life and death. >> is there a way that what you think needs to happen in your community and what they think needs to happen in terms of preserving the right to bear arms as american citizens, can those two things happen together? >> i think so. i guess -- i believe you can have responsible gun laws without prohibiting guns all together. i actually challenged the local nra representative to a debate on television. we actually debated. i told him, i believe the constitution gives us the right to bear arms, but where does it say we can pack an m-15 and have
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machine guns walking down an urban neighborhood. responsible handgun ownership, certain handguns should not be on the streets period. not in an urban community. second of all, there should be strict laws, responsible laws so the gun owner has the gun, maintains the gun and is qualified to have the gun. you don't want people with criminal backgrounds. they should not have guns. there's a common sense. every day, 90% of the people you talk to should do it. i believe their interest is more political than -- well, their interest is not the lives of these people. this is my interest, these lives. these are the lives i have. >> councilman ricky burgess and i did have a chance to see homewood up close and personal.
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this alley was known as the most dangerous place in the united states. this alley, right here, where we are at. this was the most dangerous place. the most homicides in the united states. that's why this is like this. >> more ahead. we'll be right back. ♪ i've seen the sunrise paint the desert. witnessed snowfall on the first day of spring. ♪ but the most beautiful thing i've ever seen was the image on a screen that helped our doctor see my wife's cancer was treatable. [ male announcer ] ge technologies help doctors detect cancer early so they can save more lives. bringing better health to more people. ♪
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you said you used to play here when you were a kid? this was my alley a couple
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blocks down. i learned to play basketball, football, baseball, you know, track relays right here. this was for many years the most dangerous places in the city of pittsburgh. one of the local record producers called it pistol-vania. these houses were learned to store guns and bodies. they put holes because they're all connected. they put holes in the walls interconnecting these buildings. they go in this door, run down through the holes of the walls and come out further down to escape police. bodies found here, guns found here. almost any vacant building you had a danger of finding guns. rather than hide them at their house they hide them in places like this. one of my great interests, we're working on tearing this down. this has to come down. as you see, empty lots.
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vacant lots. and even being here this way is dangerous. >> yeah. >> even though they've concreted some of it, still some of it you can -- how you doing baby? you okay? good to see you. what's your name? good to see you. how you doing? >> do you live around here? >> where do you live? >> over there. >> okay. well good. on your way motor hohome from s? >> this is your city councilman. >> good to see you. a young girl about her age was shot and killed about five years ago on the front side of the street on the way home from school. it is dangerous because there is a school about two blocks that way. the school was probably like this. >> seeing her go home through these lots is hard. >> i see it every day. i see it absolutely every day. >> what happens to -- >> this is a result, make no mistake, this is economics.
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these were closed -- they got this way because they were shooting people on these streets every day. this alley was known as for a while the most dangerous place in the united states, this alley right here where you're at. this is the most dangerous place, highest incidence of homicide right in this alley in the united states. that's why this is like this. >> so people had to move because regardless of what else was offered or not offered. >> right. they just had to go. >> the thing about seeing this here is that pittsburgh has good bones, you know? >> sure. >> sort of like big, beautiful houses like this is -- >> right. gorgeous. if you go in the houses they're gorgeous. this was the steel workers back in the day. my father worked in the mills. these are all steel workers' houses. they are built on, you know, stone and brick and marble and wood and bathrooms and they're
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built for mobile families too. this was the largest arashati neighborhood in pittsburgh. you saw these built for all these families, multiple kitchens and bathrooms and any of these houses probably couldn't sell for more than $20,000. >> amazing. and the only thing i've ever seen with this many houses boarded up is natural disaster. it's been flooded, you know, hurricane damage, that sort of thing. but this isn't natural disaster. >> this is unnatural. >> this is policy disaster. >> right. this is gun violence. this is what guns have done to my community. and i have more vike and the houses, more empty lots than any other place in the city of pittsburgh. i can show you house after house after house. i can show you houses with furniture in them. you could move into them tomorrow. this is my home. i love this place. i still love it.
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>> it's beautiful, a beautiful neighborhood. >> i believe i can rebuild it. >> why doesn't the democratic party, why don't people who represent urban districts have a say in gun debate? the gun debate is dominated by the nra, dominated by people who are fundamentalist about gun rights. why isn't the other side surfacing in the gun debate? >> i do know here in pennsylvania we are controlled by the republicans. our house, our senate, and our governor are owned by republicans and so they are not interested in the nra, you know, puts a lot of money in lobbying, a lot of money in local contributions and they absolutely control our state and so any responsible gun law has not been passed in our state and people like me, i think, who speak up, i think hopefully we're heard but i think we don't have the power in the state in order to make it happen because in pennsylvania we have two major urban centers but a lot of
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rural communities represented by rural representatives. but i challenge them to come here with me. let me show you my community. i will show you the victims of gun violence. i'll show you what is left and you tell me what good your lobbying has done for my community. tell me what those guns have done in good for my community. i'll show you the deaths. i'll show you the houses. i'll show you the buildings, the flight. how would good, the overwhelming number of guns on my streets have done to my community. what good has it done for us? >> councilman rick burgess thank you for this tour and this time. >> thank you. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 absolutely, i mean, these financial services companies tdd# 1-800-345-2550 are still talking about retirement tdd# 1-800-345-2550 like it's some kind of dream. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 it's either this magic number i'm supposed to reach, or... tdd# 1-800-345-2550 it's beach homes or it's starting a vineyard. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 come on !
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