good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." we're starting the show this morning with a little flash back to december of 1987. just months after president reagan famously called on mchale gorbachev to tear down that berlin wall. and ross perot and wives lined up to meet mr. gorbachev himself at the state department. at the time, the future russian president, vladimir putin, was deep into his career as a kgb intelligence officer, stationed mostly in east germany on the other side of that wall. and now we have reason to believe that putin as president put those intelligence skills to work, as recently as this year to help derail hillary clinton's chances of becoming president of the united states and to help her opponent, donald trump. high-level intelligence officials with direct access to the information told nbc news that new evidence shows putin personally decided how hacked democratic material would be
used as part of a vendetta against clinton. and on friday, they agreed with the assessment that russian sought to tip the scales in trump's favor. so why would putin be so pro trump? well -- >> i think i would have a very, very good relationship with putin, and i think i would have a very, very good relationship with russia. we were both on "60 minutes," we were stable mates and we did very well that night. i do have a relationship, and i can tell you he's very interested in what we're doing here today. probably interested in what you and i are saying today. i think he does respect me. and i hope i get along great with him. >> perhaps we should have seen the bro manic writing on the wall because the two men have interesting similarities. take, for instance, putin's tendency to control messaging by deciding which facts are true facts. trump will simply repeat a statement over and over and over again until people believe it. like his insistence the murder
rate is higher. and there are mounting concerns that trump could use the presidency to enrich himself and his family. and he still has not answered questions about the ethics and legality about his business ties. and both men are russian hack truthers. on the same day putin spokesperson called the report of putin's personal involvement in the hacking, quote, laughable nonsense, trump launched a new line of attack right from being picked up by and parroted, tweeting, if russia or some other party was hacking, why did the white house wait so long to act? why do they only complain after hillary lost? an assertion that politifact has already rated pants on fire. and joining me now, malcolm nance, former intelligence operative, sara, a scholar of states, and journalist and
contributor. thank you all for being here. and sara, i want to go to you first. these similarities between the authoritarian style of putin and what trump seems to be emulating are many. one of which is the sort of bullying of corporations and media. there was a meeting earlier this week between trump at trump tower, where he's calling all these business executives in from tech companies and leaves out twitter. cnbc is reporting that trump did not allow twitter ceo to come to the tech meeting. trump bounced the twitter team because they refused to put a crooked hillary emojo on the site. it seems trivial. but can you talk a little bit about this idea to bully media corporations and companies? >> yeah, it's definitely not trivial. you know, throughout the campaign, you saw two phenomenon happening concurrently. and one is that trump has corporate links to a lot of networks. you know, like jeff zucker who
said that trump was profitable for them, even if he was bad for america. at the same time, trump has engaged in this practice of threatening journalists or, you know, including threatening to reveal personal information about them, including some msnbc. which has been i think effective at shaping public discourse. and so the end result of this is that people make political decisions based on the information that they have available to them. and trump and his team doing everything to shape the information to object few skate into how they make that decision. twitter has been kind of a double-edged sword. an effective way for trump to get his message out because the media often takes his tweets and writes entire stories about them without bothering to correct factual errors. but it's also been a place of resistance. a place where people have been able to critique trump. and so in that sense, i think it poses the danger to the administration, and so i'm not
surprised that trump would signal twitter as a source of, you know, resistance and one that, you know, should be dismissed or eliminated from the team that's working with them. >> and tirrell, let's talk about the same kind of attacks but this time against boeing. trump also used to twitter to essentially down the deal to refurbish air force one, lying about the cost of it, and essentially threatening boeing, saying boeing is building a brand-new air force once, but the costs are more than $4 billion. he says cancel order. that would be trivial if it is donald trump the business guy, but this is the president threatening an american company. not the price of the contract, but just the threat sent boeing's stock tumbling. and if boeing were to really be hurt financially, the beneficiary would be a foreign company. airbus of france. how do you assess trump's sort of putin-like attacks on
american companies? >> okay, well, we first have to remember that one of the main differences between donald trump and, say, putin is that in russia, a company that does not obey putin -- a ceo or a journalist, they end up dead. so -- in -- since 1992, roughly 56 journalists have ended up dead. in fact, you can find -- and i can't remember the names directly, but if you're a politician, a member of parliament who falls to the negative sides of the kremlin, you could end up dead. so that's a major distinction. and one of the similarities is that they're really taking advantage of something that scholars call an imperial -- basically, an imperial -- imperial nationalism. and so basically, they look at what's going on on the ground, and it's pretty much about reasserting russia as a powerful state and using corporations in order to advance that goal as
something that putin has always done since he entered office. so the way that putin is able to do it is say -- he'll go to a company, you know, as long as they pay their taxes, everything is okay. if they decide to engage in politics, take, for example, like boeing. that was a saying that happened in moscow where another major city -- if boeing said, well, you know what, we're not really going to -- you know, pretty much budge on what you're saying or your threats, then the tax police, which -- which is used often in russia, will go in, seize their computers and say, you know what, you are -- you've evaded your taxes and owe $500 million. that happens regularly in russia. the thing about trump, since we do have a rule of law, you're not able to do that. but it doesn't mean that his threats are not effective. and so where -- in the case of boeing, where the ceo or some high officials may end up dead, he can affect them economically. so there is a very similar strain between the two leaders.
it's just that in russia, it can become deadly. here just financially crippling. >> and i'll ask you on that same point. you did work as a double agent dealing with the russians directly. how similar -- you just heard tirrell say the difference is you could end up dead or in jail, assets essentially seized by the kremlin and given to a good friend of vladimir putin, as our rachel maddow reported. what in theory could donald trump do to hurt american companies, and what is the precedent you can site from russia in the way he deals with recalcitrant businesses? >> i think the biggest difference between the united states and russia, in russia, the cold war never ended. they view us as their enemy. so when you look at russia and decipher what they're doing, they look at it through the prism of how can they hurt us, and hurting them is directly beneficial to them. now, again, there are -- since russia opened up, there have
been a number of big companies, ge and the like that do business, and exxonmobil that do business in russia. clearly, the sanctions have hurt those big companies. so, you know, there is a flip side to this, which is, you know, as we're seeing the sanctions which are meant -- and this is always the case with sanctions, that are meant to actually hurt the russians, have actually had a negative impact on american companies. and i think there has been quite a bit of precious to ease the sanctions so the companies can continue to do business. i think that we can't underestimate the fact that russia really sees us as their enemy. you were mentioning before about the bromance between putin and trump, i think mr. trump is going to realize very quickly that putin doesn't care about trump. he's actually interested in hurting the united states. that's his end game. a >> and that is something you talk about a lot. this is for putin, a game in which he intends and beat the united states, not become friends with the united states. there was a report this week that voice of america could turn into a putin-like media outlet.
trump will inherit a tv network. the danger here is the voice of the united states to the rest of the world, where we typically broadcast sometimes into authoritarian countries in trying to get them objective news, could instead become essentially breitbart or the voice of donald trump. how dangerous would that be to the united states' ability to have influence in countries that are repressive? >>. >> it would be essentially dangerous. i don't think donald trump would bother with voice of america. i'm not sure he has heard of voice of america or. that's not a joke. let's not laugh at it. it's actually scary. but for the most part, if he finds out that he can have his own version of russia today, his own version of split nick, two propaganda arms that took over from the soviet union, it could be exceptionally damaging. but i want to come to a point that was made a little bit earlier. when did all of this happen to donald trump? right? he met gorbachev. he was a big supporter of glassnos.
at some point, he was co opted by vladimir putin. and that means he bought into and embraced the dictatorial ideology that was done by a spy master of the kgb. ten years ago, 20 years ago, there would be treason trials. i would like to bring one point up. why? because long ago there was a guy, a kgb officer, and he wrote," this is who the kgb targeted, eagle centric people who are too greedy or suffer from exaggerated self importance. these are the people kgb wants and finds easiest to recruit. vladimir putin went to the school of intelligence, he learned how to manipulate people, and at some point, we need to find out when did donald trump's ideology shift from western capitalism to russian authoritarianism. >> this is an important question. and let me go to you first on that. we know that donald trump's family has courted business in russia, done business in russia. they sell a lot of condos to
russian nationals. trump's son, donald jr., was quoted in 2008 in saying we see a lot of money, a lot of money coming for new builds and the russian economy. is it the business interest, the greed that could have turned donald trump so fully toward mimicking really everything that putin believes he believes as well? >> yeah. no, i don't think malcolm is absolutely right. that clearly, you know, the oligarch model that emerged with putin is something that i think donald trump was fascinated by, and clearly wanted to emulate. so while i don't know if there is a direct correlation to say that putin is actually running or controlling him as a puppet, i think that donald trump was clearly enamored with the wealth -- putin is the wealthiest man in the world, by far. i think the simple wealth that emerged of the oligarchs are something that donald trump really wanted to get a taste of, and i think that as a result, is very possible as malcolm is
suggesting that his ideology shifted, not so much in terms of communism or pro russiaism, but this concept of what can i could to become an oligarch. and i think i'm not so sure that trump thought he was going to win the election. but he clearly looked at this and said, even if i don't win there is a way toin grash ate myself with the russians. >> same thing to you, sara. is he emulating trump, putin or trying to become ex traf ganltly weather in the way that putin did? >> i think those two things are very similar. i think he is trying to emulate him and i think putin is extravagantly wealthy, estimated to be worth $200 billion. by some its accounts. and we don't know precisely what putin is worth. he hides this money through friends, kroonees, offshore accounts. and there is a similar phenomenon going on with trump. we don't know how much money trump has. we don't know what his tax returns. we don't know who he owes money
to. we don't know whether he's trying to make greater profit or pay off debt and using foreign connections with russia as a method to do that and perhaps that's part of how he became compromised. and so that's the kind of thing that i think really needs to be addressed and in a nonpartisan congressional investigation of these ties. we need to see -- it seems we're moving the direction of yep to go race. cabinet appointments indicate we're moving to something that benefits russia. all these things really need to be straightened out and investigated thoroughly now before he takes office in late january. >> absolutely. all of it is unprecedented in the common spelling. we're going to talk about that later, as well. thank you all. coming up, donald trump encourages russia to hack the election in the mainstream media response, blame obama. that's next.
not much happens in russia without vladimir putin. last i checked, there's not a lot of debate and democratic deliberation, particularly when it comes to policies directed at the united states. our goal continues to be to send a clear message to russia or others, not to do this to us. because we can do stuff to you. there are times where the message will go -- will be directly received by the russians and not publicized. >> during his final end of year press conference, president obama had strong words about russia hacking and vladimir putin's involvement. and to republicans who accuse the president of not telling them russia was tipping the scales for trump. obama said this.
>> that wasn't news. the president-elect during the campaign said so. and then after the election suddenly they're asking, oh, why didn't you tell us that maybe the russians were trying to help our candidate? well, come on. >> joining me now, the "washington post," kathryn ham pell, april ryan for american urban radio networks and author of "mothers and race," kurt eichenwald. thank you all for being here. curt, i feel i have to go to you first. i feel we have dragged you out of your home every weekend to talk about russian interference in the election or -- conflicts of interest. so this surprise that everyone is feeling now that this issue was happening, this sort of shock, why didn't the administration tell us that the russian hack was going on. how does that slammed with you,
sir? >> it's totally absurd. i mean, you had the director of national intelligence issue a letter on october 7th that said this is happening. you had a -- actually, a large collection of former national security experts who issued a letter to us, to the media, saying, "you're being taken. stop doing this." now, they were issuing that under -- with the express permission of the cia. because the cia can't make that kind of recommend thanks. they did it, trying to get us to stop. and we didn't. and i was reporting -- i know david was reporting that this was going on. in fact, before the election, i very specifically said in august, putin and company began to believe that trump was unstable. because of his attacks on the gold star family.
they put the entire operation on hold. they started again, then they stopped again and got buyers' remorse about what was happening. and so, you know, all the damage was done by july. and all that is new that has come out is that instead of them just trying to disrupt the election, the motive was to get donald trump elected. and it takes a while to get motive down. i don't -- the attack on obama is absurd politics by people who are still playing up to the russians. >> and at the end of the day, i think that shift to attacking barack obama, david corn, i have to talk about. it's been really a wholesale shift. the entire mainstream media has moved in that direction with one tweet from donald trump, which is being portrayed as him trying to accept the cia recommendations. what you really have the trump campaign -- pap rat us. attempting to move the campaign to barack obama. and for now it seems to be
working. >> you've got to keep your eye on the big picture. the big picture is what putin and russia did. the russian hacking. and it's also what donald trump's reaction to that was during the campaign, which is basically russia hacked some more. and then you've got to look at the fact that after the election, donald trump is saying, no one told me before the election about the hacking. didn't raise this. what he was briefed on this and as curt noted, public statements on the front page of the newspapers, meaning one of two things. that donald trump's short-term memory has failed, which is pretty unprecedented or that he's just an outright liar. those are the two choices. turning to barack obama, i mean, i do think there's a little bit of a challenge or dilemma for him. right now there are over 60 million americans who voted for hillary clinton, and who are saying, what the heck happened? how come there wasn't more media coverage and how come the administration did not make a bigger deal of this publicly. they did put out a statement,
but in the grand scheme of things, it was sort of low-key. not a hair on fire type of thing. when they watched people -- watched obama at the press conference yesterday, he was being very reasonable and being very adult-like in saying you may not know how we respond, but we're going to respond. and i believe him. i take him at his word on that. i believe that, you know, the u.s. government will find ways to respond, and they don't like that this happened. but at the same time, i think people who feel out of sorts about this or angry about this, are not being talked to by many leaders of the democratic party or other people in leadership positions, let alone any republican. and i think a lot of the democrat leadership, including chuck schumer and others, were late or slow to immediately call for an investigation. they're all there now. but for a while, there was a lag. and i think that is an issue that democrats and other people -- not partisan, republicans and others, have to look at. >> i'm going to come to people
in a second. kathryn, i want ask you about the lag. you have republicans now sort of slowly coming around to the idea that it actually does matter that russia was hacking and attacking our electoral process. but you also had reporting in this past week that some senior republicans stood in the way of a bipartisan more hair on fire response before the election. you had harry reid publicly saying, we know that there is damning information in trying to shame the fbi into doing about russian hacking or russian intrusion, what it was doing about hillary clinton's e-mails and anthony weiner's laptop. >> absolutely. i mean, as president obama said yesterday, there are people who made their career out of being anti russia who are now sort of busy footing around this issue. at the very least. at the worst, actively blocking further investigation into this. and i understand why. you know, they're worried about delegitimizing their candidate, who is now the president-elect. but on the other hand, they have to show some leadership.
not only because it's potentially -- this potentially affected our last election, but future elections. it could affect the legitimacy of the entire democratic process. >> yeah, and april, i want to play you a little bit of president obama yesterday, and he's sort of addressing this idea that he should be more publicly attacking or shaming vladimir putin for what they did with our election. take a listen. >> part of why the russians have been effective on this is because they don't go around announcing what they're doing. it's not like putin is going around the world publicly saying, "look what we did. wasn't that clever." he denies it. so the idea that somehow public shaming is going to be effective, i think doesn't re read -- the thought process in russia very well. >> i want you to read president obama, what you've been doing for quite a long time as a
member of that correspondence pool april, ryan. is this no-barack obama who is planning retaliation against russia that he's not telling us about, or do you think he's being too low-key. >> he's not being low-key. behind the scenes is what is really the issue. and he's doing exactly what putin as the president says, you know, he says that nothing happens in russia without putin's okay. so he's doing exactly what he believes that is happening in russia. he is giving a response, retaliation privately, behind the scenes, intelligence-wise, cyber security wise, and joy, not only is this an issue right now, but there is a bigger issue. there has been attempts to hack the government systems every day. a senior former obama official told me that they have to change their e-mail every year, because there is a constant attempt. but now there is something that
is firm, that has definitely changed the course of our democracy. and this is why this is so big. when you have a hacking into the dnc, the democratic national committee, supposedly in the rnc, as well, and a positive campaign manager's account, this is big. and this has repercussions not just for today but through the course of history to come. so this president cannot go out on twitter, cannot talk in the media sphere about what's happening. he's got to do it behind the scenes, stilly and swift. >> joy? >> yes, please. >> the one thing -- one thing i think people should be aware of, in october, the message came out from the white house that they were going to engage in a proportional response. and very shortly after that, there was a ukrainian hack of the kremlin. and a bunch of kremlin e-mails went, you know, basically got
dumped into the ukrainian version of wikileaks. i've seen those e-mails. they have been confirmed that they are real. now, was it a coincidence or is the united states in a cyber war, using a ukrainian cutout for help? i think it's the second. >> yeah. >> and so i think when we stand back and say, why aren't they doing anything, that happened before the election, and i don't think it was a coincidence. >> yeah. >> they may be doing things. and i assume they are doing things. i assume that, you know, the people in our cyber security intelligence community are engaged by what happened. and they're no fans of donald trump, as well. but i do think that the president has this tough job between not saying exactly what's happening, but also connecting with americans who are highly, highly concerned about this. and, you know, that is a -- it's a tight rope to walk. and i thought yesterday he aired
more on the side of responsibility and caution than connecting with people. >> yeah. all right. we are unfortunately out of time. kathryn ram pell, thank you very much. april ryan. curt and david will be back. refuse william barber. stay with us. sometimes when brushing my gums bleed. no big deal. but my hygienist said, it is a big deal. go pro with crest pro health gum protection. it helps prevent gum bleeding by targeting harmful bacteria on your gums. left untreated, these symptoms could lead to more serious problems including tooth loss. gum crisis averted.
we are back. i wanted to let catherine rampell make a really good point. she didn't get a chance to make about dealing with authoritarian rulers. she said it off-camera and i said no, you have to say that on-camera. please make your point about dealing with people like trump and putin. >> one of the questions when dealing with authoritarian figures, people who are ruling and hold their honor in high regard, don't want to lose face, is that while public condemnation, public signalling of virtue and anger and disgust is very gratifying and something voters want to hear. something that members of the media want to hear.
it's not always particularly effective. it can cause those personalities to dig in their heels and say, you're condemning me and therefore, i need to prove that i'm right. and that sometimes the more effective thing is to use back channels and to say -- or to publicly say, i'm disappointed in you, effectively. that you are not holding yourself to your own high standards. when i used to cover human rights issues, this was often advice that human rights groups would give me when i was talking about china locking up a dissident, for example. not to say, this is terrible and you shouldn't do it. but to say you are not -- the only requirements of your own constitution. >> right. >> and to basically play to their ego and do things behind the scenes. this has been an issue with trump. there were a lot of public protests about his choosing of bannan who, you know, is the darling of the white supremacists. and there was a lot of concern that -- >> yeah. >> that politicians, like paul ryan, were not publicly standing up to trump for this. >> saying it might not have been effective or the most effective
i can defend my country. but somebody that tell us we can't exercise our constitutional rights. so when i knock on this door today, i knock on this door for freedom! i knock on this door for democracy! i knock than this dor for north carolina! >> welcome back to "a.m. joy." dozens of protests, including the veteran you just saw, were arrested on friday in the north carolina general assembly where hundreds gathered to oppose what they're calling a power grab by gop lawmakers. in an extraordinary move, outgoing republican governor, pat mccrory, signed a bill stripping the incoming democratic governor of some key
powers. the bill substantially limits to reduce democrats' power over election boards which determine things like how many voting sites each bring sink will get. the state's republican-controlled general assembly took advantage of an impromptu special session that was supposed to be about disaster relief after spending weeks contesting cooper's narrow victory. mccrory finally conceded on december 5th but with the backing of state republicans is fighting to ensure that if he can't run north carolina, neither will his successor. joining me now from raleigh is william barber president of the naacp. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you so much, it's been a long night. nearly 100 people have actually gotten arrested. that young man was one of them. he was a former warrior in afghanistan. and we were locked out of the
gallery. people simply wanted to go in and watch. in a form of almost fascism they didn't want to let people speak up and we literally knocked on the doors to get in and they arrested people for doing that. >> as we know, as of 11:30 last night, 45 protesters had been released and we will update the status of people arrested. i want to play for you, reverend, representative nelson dollar. he is a republican state representative who was defending the passage of these bills, stripping the incoming governor of his powers. let's take a listen. >> this is majority rule. we have elections. elections have consequences. elections provided us a new governor. but those same elections, that same electorate, provided super majorities the same as in this current session. >> you can hear protesters
chanting in the background. how do you respond to that, reverend barber? >> it sounds like segregationist talk when they used to have -- said they had the majority. but a majority does not give you the right to run roughshod over the constitution. this -- this republican extremist have a special kind of low and a thirst for power. so let me clear up the record. first of all, this legislature is unconstitutionally constituted. the courts have ruled, they only have a super majority because of racist gerrymander in which now the courts have demanded have to be redrawn and we have to have a special election next year. number two, 13 times this legislature has passed unconstitutional laws that the courts have overturned. that's why we in the movement fight them, because they have a propensity to do this. next, this was a harret special for hurricane victims, about power grabbing. it was done in secret. there was no inside. there were all white people in the secret meetings that planned
this. they claimed cooper only won by 10,000 votes but they continent talk about the 158 sites they denied in early voting versus what we had in 2014. and this is unprecedented. democrats have never done this, even though they lie and say they have. we are planning to sue. i want to announce that on your program. because we believe these are violations of the voting rights act, as well as the equal protection clause. because millions of voters voted for cooper. millions of african-americans. and by stripping power, they are deluding the influence of african-americans. and this is just -- i mean, it's almost -- how to respond to these kinds of distortions, they are really mad, because cooper won and also an african-american, mike morgan won the supreme court by over 350,000 votes. and 76 county's. that'sing wh that's what's going on here. >> and one of the reaches they have ridiculed roy cooper, said he doesn't show up much to
court. that's because roy cooper has refused to defend things like the sb-2 law that both regulated who goes to the bathroom where and stopped cities from raising the minimum wage. i want to play a little bit of governor-elect cooper talking about this power grab. listen. >> most people might think this is a partisan power grab. but it is really more ominous. if i believe that laws pass by the legislature hurt working families and are unconstitutional, they will see me in court. >> and reverend barber, you have said the naacp plans to go to court. it sounds like cooper is going to go to court. give us how that is going to play out. are these going to be one joined lawsuit or do you expect multiple suits to end in court. one of the laws they passed makes it a more circuitous route to get a lawsuit to the state supreme court. >> yeah. and that's going to probably be
challenged, as well. it's going to probably be multiple suits, because you know, we're nonpartisan in the naacp. but the reality is, you know, they -- say things, as you said, about dallas wood house in saying that he has been constantly -- his own brother calls him a racist. i seldom respond to him. we have to fight this. this is just as bad as those racist voter suppression laws and we beat them on those. we beat them on redistricting. that's what i want people to know. and i want people to understand that after all their tricks and suppression, they lost. and they see the handwriting on the wall. they know that next year when these lines are redrawn, many will not get re-elected. they can only get elected through racist gerrymandering. we have to fight it. i'm sure the parties will fight. we have to wage this fight on behalf the people.
because what they have literally done, they have attempted to -- they're scared of the policies. this is the same group, joy, that would not allow living wages to be voted on, even though 79.6% of carolinians want it to be voted on. this is the same group that kept 500,000 people from having medicaid expansion. 346,000 white people, 30,000 veterans. this is the same group that has cut off from public education. and took 900,000 people's earned income tax credit so they could give 14 families a tax break. this group has no integrity when it comes to caring for the people. this was a secret coup. it's unconstitutional. it's immoral. and we plan to fight it with everything we have. we cannot let it stand. >> reverend barber, we appreciate all you are doing and we continue to follow you. reverend william barber, thank you. in our next hour, north carolina republican will be here to try and defend the power grab that just took place. jerry springer is in the house. and we will prove to you that
president obama was right about kanye all along. >> he's a jackass. when they thought they should westart saving for retirement.le then we asked some older people when they actually did start saving. this gap between when we should start saving and when we actually do is one of the reasons why too many of us aren't prepared for retirement. just start as early as you can. it's going to pay off in the future. if we all start saving a little more today,
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far from any population areas. protesters say it would poison the drinking water for the standing rook sioux reservation. earlier this month, the army corps of engineers denied a permit for construction to continue. but thousands remain at the site, and that's because the pipeline's owner, energy transfer partners says it continues to go forward/has powerful allies in the trump administration. trump's pick, former texas governor, rick perry, sits on the board of energy transfer partners and trump himself owned shares but sold them earlier this year, according to his transition team. let's bring the president of the national resources defense counsel sill. rea, thanks for being here. the "washington post" headlined it as quickly amassing power. here are examples. they say that the interior secretary pick, ryan zincy, the largest contributor, giving him
345,000-plus for his campaigns. and the scott pruitt in oak receives more than $318,000 since 2002. and his reelect in 2013 was chaired by -- chaired by basically a fossil fuel company. let's move on to rick perry, a member of the board of directors, received $6 million from the ceo. so obviously, this is a cause for concern. >> look, there has never been a greater threat to the air we breathe or the water we drink. the cabinet that trump is amassing -- and remember, this is a man who ran on a populist general at that, has brought in people who have spent their entire careers, putting polluter profits first and people last. >> but what about those on the other side who say, wait a minute, drilling equals jobs. the more we drill in the united states, the more jobs there will be. how do you respond to that? >> well, look. i think the jobs argument is
just -- it's just a ruse to gloss over the impacts of the oil and gas industries in particular. looking at the track records of these individuals, during rex tillerson's tenure at exxon, more than $100 million in fines that that company has had to pay for clean air violations and clean water violations. rick perry sued the epa 18 times during his administration to try to prevent rigorous oversight and enforcement of clean air and things like mercury and arsenic and lead in our air. the same thing with scott pruitt. in eight years, five lawsuits from scott pruitt, trying to, be again, hinder the very agency he is now nominated to lead. it's just absurd. >> yeah, it seems like a lot of these nominations are designed to unwind the cabinet offices they're in. rick perry couldn't remember the three agencies he would
eliminate as president. the third one was the one he's about to lead. just sort of quantify for people what we're talking about here. the obama administration now moving to block mining near yellowstone park. you have these industries lusting after drilling up under maining under yellowstone park. are we looking at the yellowstone parks of the world suddenly going under the drill? >> we absolutely are. many of these national parks which most people think are protected and they're iconic places everybody -- not just americans, across the world, love. these places are not protected as much as they should be. and yellowstone is one example, the grand canyon another. trying to ensure the sanctity of our national heritage and our natural heritage. that's something i think the obama administration has been quite strong on and something that is absolutely going to be vulnerable. >> very quickly, how unsafe and worried are you about climate
scientists saving their research, worried it will be deleted. >> it's pretty terrifying. the fact that any reasonable dialogue or preparation does not seem to matter to this administration, both in terms of preparation as well as in terms of qualification and getting to this whole idea that science breathes in national analysis can't be pulled into how government makes decisions is appalling. >> it is. when you get rid of the climate scientists, then you can drill in yellowstone park. thank you. up next, more on north carolina's political drama, and jerry springer joins us live. more "a.m. joy" after the break. lilly.
she pretty much lives in her favorite princess dress. but once a week i let her play sheriff so i can wash it. i use tide to get out those week old stains and downy to get it fresh and soft. you are free to go. tide and downy together. democrats have never done this, even though they lie and say that they have. we are planning to sue. i want to announce that on your program, because we believe these are violations of the voting rights act, as well as the equal protection clause. because millions of voters
voted. and by stripping of the power, they diluting the influence of african-americans. you almost -- how to respond to these kind of distortions, they are really mad, because cooper won and also an african-american, mike morgan won the supreme court by over 350,000 votes. and 76 counties. that's what's really going on here. and we are going to fight this with everything we have. >> good morning. and welcome back to "a.m. joy." in our last half hour, reverend william barber, president of the north carolina naacp announced on our show they are planning to sue, moving to strip power from incoming governor, roy cooper. outgoing republican governor, pat mccrory, signed a bill on friday that strips authority from the state's democratic governor-elect by merging the state's elections andethics board. it would limit the incoming governor's power to name his own cabinet and dramatically reduce
the state employees from 1,500 to 425. the brazen moves which came during a special session supposed to be about helping victims of disasters met with a power grab. new newly democratic governor try to strip him of power before he's sworn into office. joining me is the leader of the north carolina state of representatives, larry hall and leader of the republican party. thank you both for joining me. dallas woodhouse, how do you justify with the governor specifically being rejected by north carolina, stripping him of power and using a legislative special session that was supposed to be about disaster relief to do it? >> well, let me just say, in that special session, we did answer disaster relief, passed millions and millions of dollars in flood relief and relief from
the wildfires due to good budgeting. this is what we have done in north carolina every time there has been a partisan change in power with sharply divided government between both the branches and the parties. and i hate that mr. barber likes to call people liars. jim hunt's democrats did this to us in '77, '85. even roy cooper in 2000 instituted a court packing scheme once we overtook the court of appeals. these are things that happen when we have sharply divided government in a government that loathes executive power. when we started this state, it was the legislature that elected the governor and redefined his duties all of the time. we elect a statewide council of state with an insurance commissioner and treasurer and republican instruction. races we won this year for the first time virtually ever. and because we diffuse power from the executive. the legislature has done this throughout its history. and it is true that when you
have your own guy in the governor's mansion, you tend to give him a little more executive power and then pull it back on the next guy. it has happened time and time again throughout the legitimate constitutional checks and balances of power. >> in fact, it has not happened time and time again, because up until 2010, the democrats controlled the state of north carolina for decades. and, by the way -- hold on -- hold on. you cited -- >> stripped power of governor -- >> hold on a second. hello? >> no, ma'am. i'm going to answer your question. >> i didn't ask you a question. >> you were saying they haven't done it. we did elect governors. they stripped the republican lieutenant governor of all of their power in '88, stripped the power of jim martin in '84 and institute court-packing scheme in 2000 by governor-elect cooper. and then he defended his attorney general. so there is a history here. >> you just cited. now i'm going to talk. you just cited him hunt and jim
martin, both of whom oppose what you did. both of whom said that your legislature went too far. jim martin is a republican and he said that he believes what you all did went too far. so he's not even supporting you and you're citing him. >> i agree he said that. his power was stripped by democrats. >> the lieutenant governor. he was the - the lieutenant -- not his power. that is actually factually incorrect. there was a vote to strip the lieutenant governor -- ma'am, they stripped the hiring authority. you need to look it up. >> let's go to state representative larry hall on this for your response. >> well, good morning joy, good morning to your audience. it is important people understand what is happening in north carolina and certainly the question of what happened in a special session where people were not given the constitutional notice, neither they nor their representatives were given the constitutional notice that there would even be this special session. and as we go back -- >> what section of the constitution is that?
>> let's let larry hall have a chance. you had a long time. >> as we talk about what happened when governor mccrory was elected, governor mccrory was elected -- the republicans gave him additional appointment powers. and so we know what they did when he was elected. so to say that they would not have done the same thing had he won re-election, he would have retained those powers. now they make an argument that they should pull back because it's for the good of the government. clearly it's not. they call this special session where only republican members, this fourth special session, only republican members even knew about it. they did not give us an opportunity. and we really didn't deal with any issues in this fourth special session that could not have been dealt with last session or in january a few weeks from now. and so -- >> mr. hall, did you not also submit -- mr. hallow owe excuse me, no one can hear you if you're both talking. >> to just take away the rights of the people to know what is going on and be properly
represented. so -- >> representative hall, did you not put in bills to also do things -- >> regarding disaster, the fourth special session with dealt with other items was certainly one just to strip power. and i would note -- >> hold on a second. dallas woodhouse, you need -- everybody stop. can we hold on for a second? >> the board of elections, they cannot function and they cannot ensure that the citizens' rights regarding these elections are taken care. >> okay. >> this is a setup to make government ineffective and to make the executive branch ineffective by delaying confirmation of executive branch appointees. >> so a washington gridlock. >> it's funny to hear mr. hallow owe. >> one second. we're going to try to get larry hall -- i don't think that larry hall could hear me. he want to make sure both of you guys can talk one at a time.
that way everyone can hear what you're saying. let's not talk over one another. dallas, you knnow have the naac saying they're going to sue. the incoming governor is going to go to court. the track record of the republican party to defund planned parenthood make it harder for african-americans to vote. >> i disagree with that. i think that is offensive and wrong. >> let me read you the 13 cases overturned. the 13 laws overturned very particularly. a 2011 bill which stripped planned parenthood of state funding. 2012, to take away north carolina's educators' ability to charge dues for payroll detections. a 2011 bill showing an ultrasound. an amendment to the state constitution banning gay marriage. you had a sweeping rewrite of state election allows that an appeals court found to be unconstitutional because it made it almost with strategic decision for african-americans
to vote. whether it's federal courts or our state supreme court isn't good. do you feel these bills will survive, since you made it difficult. >> a number of those cases you mentioned, like our voting and other things, we have not had final determination on that. also the district cases. >> the redistricting, actually, yes. you guys were ordered to do redistricting. there will be special elections in march. gerrymandered. >> we'll see about that. >> because they were overturned. >> the supreme court has not had a rule on that. and i do not believe we'll have elections next year. i believe the supreme court will stop that. i'll bet 100 donation to the durham rescue mission in mr. hall's district we won't have those elections because the state court is going to overturn that radical ruling. >> why is it seems most of what has been done by the legislature, whether denying the medicaid expansion, the republicans seem to have used their power in north carolina. that is what was -- strategic --
surgical precision targeting african-american voters to make it harder for them to vote. >> that is a radical leftist judge and he denies. >> you did not brag about how few african-americans were able to early vote. an article from mother jones in which north carolina put out a press release saying african-american early voting is down 8.5% from this time in 2012. that was your party, bragging about it being more difficult for african-americans to vote. you, sir, put out a memo in which you told state elections boards republicans can and should make party line changes to early voting. that too makes it harder to vote. >> is there ever going to be a question? >> the question is, why have republicans seemed to have used their power in north carolina to make it harder for people to vote, harder for poor people, harder for people to get their minimum wages raised. >> we put out a memo that pointed out that the obama
coalition was crumbling in north carolina. that despite a surge in early voting, a huge increase in early voting. and by the way, republicans passed more early voting sites than ever before. more early hours than before. they just happened not to like hillary clinton, and other -- >> or mccrory, apparently. or governor mccrory. >> are you ever going to let me finish, joy? so here's the thing, ma'am. >> it's my own show. >> i understand, but if you're going to bring me on, you ought to listen to me talk. the bottom line is -- >> well, joy -- >> we divided government, and mr. cooper did win an election, he still gets to be the governor. he gets to move into the mansion, and he can sign republican bills that come his way or he can be overridden with a veto. but we have a constitutional system. they did elect mr. cooper, he's going to be governor. but they also elected a republican super majority in a
state whose history, going back to king george, loathes executive power. and every time there has been executive power changes with divided government and divided parties, we have seen executive power scaled back. that's what's happened here. >> now we're going to let someone else talk. larry hall. you heard dallas woodhouse saying he'll get to move into the mansion and that's what the governorship means now. what does is that say to you, sir? there is a substantial african-american population in the state of north carolina that did vote for the next governor. mr. woodhouse just said he'll get to live in the mansion. that should be enough. >> well, we see this continued pattern among the current state republican leadership to say let's nullify the vote, challenge the vote, even though it was supervised bipartisan republican state boards of elections, even with terrible directions from dallas to tell them to make it more difficult for citizens to vote. we see they tried to pass the monster voting law to keep
carolinians from voting. we see at every stage, they have done what they can to keep carolinians from being able to vote, to keep from respecting their vote and then to keep from honoring the commitment they should have when they take their oath of office. so as we go forward, we see they ask for the recount. they're unhappy with the state boards of elections that they appointed. and the members in the counties. and so now they want to change the board of elections, even, so that it can never act. they basically created a state board of elections that has the same number of democrats and republicans appointed. but the ultimate effect is for them to meet, a super majority for them to take a position on an issue. and it just turns our election system into a shambles. ultimately, they want to make sure the citizens lose confidence in their government. they want them to lose confidence in the executive so they can minimize what the executive is supposed to do for the people of north carolina. so it's pretty much the playbook
and we have seen it before. >> we do -- we are out of time. but i do understand there are 107 republicans seats out of 170, 30 of those were challenged in federal court. so i think we will see special elections next year, hopefully the republican party will abide by the results. >> i put $100 bet on it to durham hall's rescue mission. >> i put my money where high mouth is. coming up next, the one and only -- >> jerry, jerry, jerry, jerry! >> when
it is crazy, a day after what we thought was going to be the biggest story in the election, a story about saying trump grabbed a woman by the you know what. i got a chance to talk to jerry springer, who really put things in perspective. >> >> little respect do we have for our country do we honestly believe we will turn over our country to a man that knows nothing about world affairs, how you deliver social services, and in his heart has never been about i want to make lives better for other people. everything he has accomplished has been for himself. >> well, now that the crazy has officially happened, i would like to know what he thinks. so joining me now is jerry springer! mr. springer, sir. you know, we talked about this after that access hollywood came out. you, sir, said it was just crazy we would turn over the government to such a person. and now at least 77,000 people across three states have decided to do just that. what do you think? >> yeah, well, i still think
it's crazy. i think what we're facing now is the reality that we have never in american history had a president who lost the election by as many as 3 million votes. in other words, he's going to win the electoral college. i get that. but if you talk about what the american people wanted by almost 3 million votes, people wanted hillary. and that raises the whole question that technically it's legal he gets to be president, it doesn't reflect what the people wanted. and i think he goes into his presidency with an asterisk next to his name. this is a presidency that doesn't necessarily reflect the will of the people but somehow he's got to legitimize it all. so when you have things like the russian hacking. when you have any controversy that's going to come up now. for example, god forbid terrorists go after his properties in other countries.
are we going to send american soldiers to defend trump properties around the world? in other words, the whole question of everything he does now, people will wonder, is he really doing it because it's best for america? or is he doing it because he has financial interests in this? and now with the choosing of the secretary of state, you know, with his ties to russia, you know, what is going on here? and i think it's in trump's interests to have an independent investigation of what the russians have done to make sure that his presidency is, in fact, legitimate. that it wasn't in this case rigged by outside forces. that's on the -- the burden is on him now. >> and jerry springer, one of the things that concerns americans is the investigative authority -- the people who bring forth the intelligence on what russia did and on if, for instance, there were any contacts with the trump
campaign. that would be the cia and other agencies. but the fbi that would be the prosecutorial authority if anything were to be found to be untoward. but you also had the fbi director help donald trump get elected. that's one of the other asterisks. three days before. and also got involved. do you feel the american people can have confidence in the fbi, which only belatedly 24 hours ago decided it agreed with the cia's intelligence? >> i think it is no rational person, put parse sanship aside, no rational person can say that considering the russian hacking, considering comey's announcement 11 details before the election, which he then retracted two days before the election, considering those things, that it didn't affect, at least 1% of the voters in wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania. because if it affected 1% of the
voters, then hillary would have won the electoral vote, as well. so there is a serious question. i bring that up again. you know, understand trump is now legally going to be the president. but the legitimacy of that decision is going to be based now on what the fbi did, what the russians did, what the honesty of this result is. remember, almost 3 million more people voted for hillary. that's 25 times a larger gap than kennedy beat nixon. it is about a ten times greater gap than nixon beat humphrey. so this wasn't a nail-biter of election. the polls as it turned out, nationally, were correct. they said it would be about 3%, it is 3%. so we have got to look at this question of legitimacy. otherwise anything trump does, the people aren't going to believe or support. >> yeah.
and as you are a great -- astute observer of politics. because you are also in the reality tv business, i've got to get your response to this idea that trump has said he will continue to executive produce a television show, that he'll continue to executive produce "the apprentice," presumably get paid for that, not telling us anything about his finances, his taxes, just isn't telling us. what do you make of that idea? >> well, i guess i'm running in 2020. i could still do my show. i could be president -- oh, wait, i can't be president. i was born in england. >> the law doesn't apply to you and apparently that works. >> i know. that is outrageous. it is stupid. plus, look -- you and me, we both work in a sense for nbc. there is a real question here that has to be brought into play. when nbc news, for example, wants to question or goes after trump on some legitimate story,
is there going to be pressure that says, hey, wait a second, he's one of our employees, we want his show to do well. we don't want to anger him. or if trump says, hey, i want more commercials run for my show, for "the apprentice," spend more money on promoting it, who is going to say no to the president of the united states. there are questions we have to be answering here. this is a crazy situation. the whole thing is. this is -- you know, it's not yet a nightmare, but it's scary. >> i should note that mark burnett's company owns "the apprentice" but to your point, broadcast on nbc, is essentially running a tv show that is executive produced by the president of the united states. let's talk about other conflicts. what do you make of this notion -- in addition to the american military potentially having to protect trump hotel, you also have the situation where the president of the united states a name is
plastered all over golf courses, plastered all over hotels and condos and people can pay the president by checking into hotels. what do we make of that? >> it's unconstitutional, according to the emonthliments clause. i assume someone is going to bring a lawsuit. this entire presidency is going to be -- people aren't going to the white house to get the news. they're going to go to the courtroom. he's going to be challenged on everything. and i'm saying, from his point of view -- i mean, from his point of view -- if i were his best friend, i would say, donald, look. in history, no one is going to remember your hotels. the issue is going to be were you you a incident president. so for gosh sakes, put the country first. get rid of your properties.
put them into a blind trust. sell them. get out of this business. you wanted to be president of the united states. this is the most important thing you're doing on the planet earth right now. not your damn hotels. >> hopefully he does listen -- >> i should have said darn hotels. >> there you go. you can say it. thank you very much, jerry springer, always good to talk to you. >> thanks. joy. >> up next, donald trump doesn't want to talk about the hotels, so we will. more after the break
>> no one man should have all that power. welcome back to "a.m. joy" on tuesday donald trump with his long-time friend kanye west. trump's meet and greets dominated over shadowing the fact that trump promised to explain how he will, quote, leave my great business in total. this was supposed to be the moment when trump would fully address the conflict of interest problems. trump even set a date, december 15th, but it didn't happen. trump now says the presser will happen sometime in january. he explained away with a tweet. these are, after all, busy times. he avoided addressing the press conference, bait and switch. for example, this moment, when his kids, who were supposed to be running the trump administration, to avoid conflicts of interest took part
in the meeting. first, it's unprecedented. donald trump's congratulatory phone call with the leader of taiwan. which further stranld u.s. relations with china. trump responded this morning with a tweet, calling china's actions, not unprecedented but unpresidented, prompting much twitter hill airty. there is much more unprecedented "a.m. joy" coming up.
amid the stories of trump's potential conflicts of interest was this bizarre one published by the "new york times" on friday. eric trump was auctioning off a coffee date with his sister, ivanka, to raise money for his charitable foundation. some bidders were vying for access to the president. the bids were up past $70,000
before the foundation cancelled the auction in response to the "times" story. eric trump said today the only people that lost were the children of st. jude. joining me, cristina beltran, whitehouse ethics lawyer, eric eichenwald and mother jones. i'll come with a table, cristina. what do you think of auctioning off a dinner with his sister and people saying they wanted to use it to get access. >> it's appalling and shocking and amazing and completely tip kalg of this administration. one of the problems we have is the fact that we have a political system that already had problems with access and influence and people trying to buy influence. one of the really problem is, citizens have identified a real problem, which is that we have problems with access and influence in our politics but this is the response. saying this is honest and straight forward and blatant and
okay. and people who recognize legitimate problems and going for something that feels blatant and come policit. >> let's listen to sean spicer on cnn. >> this is a totally transparent process. that people that he has trusted, made it clear how much he values the input of his family, put their names on the transition policy. >> it's not like there is anything nefarious going on transparent. >> does the fact they're doing it in the open, letting reporters watch them blend, does that get them out of the ethical quagmire? >> no. and we don't know what's going on. they're just pictures of people in meetings. we don't hear what they say. and i think it's critically
important that the trump transition team clarify who is playing on what team. who in the trump family is going to be involved with businesses and those people should not be attending official meetings and should not be getting access to nonpublic information they could be using for securities trading or other business decisions and who is going to be working with the government. perhaps ivanka and jared main want to work with the government. there are legitimate differences of opinion with respect to interpreting the statute. those working with the government in the white house or anywhere else, need to follow the rules, free of financial conflict of interests, and follow the rules everybody else does. so they need to clarify who is on which team. and there is a muddle so far, creating impropriety. >> to that very point, elizabeth
warren was tweeting, americans need to know. the only way to eliminate conflicts of interest is to put them in a blind trust and she is planning a bill to force the emoluments clause. this is not just a problem of trump's domestic properties, he has this problem around the world. >> yeah well, what you have right now is a situation where foreign governments already lining up to take advantage of trump's conflicts of interest. in fact, i did a story on tuesday. they found out the details of what i was writing and all of the conflicts and then they cancelled their discussion. and there's a reason for that. i want to take just one example, which is in the philippines. the philippines appointed trump's business partner as the government -- as the president's special representative to the united states. he is now a government official.
he is simultaneously, because they have a building in the philippines, cutting checks for multimillions of dollars to the trump family. so stop and think about that. a government official is paying the trump family millions of dollars. the president of the philippines, duterte, is engaged in a slaughter. there is no other word for it, of drag addicts in the philippines. over 4,000 people, i believe, have been killed and it's gotten universal condemnation. but in a phone call with donald trump, donald trump says, i like what you're doing in dealing with your drug problem. which duterte has taken as a green light for his extra judicial killings. so what you have is a government that is paying millions of dollars to the trump family that is having people killed by death squads, and getting donald trump saying, that's great. you know, this is beyond
doubling. this this is obscene and potentially an impeachable offense. >> how is any of that legal? >> well, if there is foreign government money coming into the trump business organization, after january 20, that will be a violation of the emonthliments clause, including money from any companies controlled by a foreign government. that is clearly unconstitutional. whether or not there is a quid pro quo, the founders envisioned the very real risk that foreign powers would try to mettle with our political system and try to control our officials. nobody holding a position of trust with the united states government taking any money from any foreign governments, period. so that's going to have to stop. and then furthermore, we have to worry about the national security and global security concerns where we have the president's name up on buildings all over the world because
somebody is going to have to protect them. and if foreign governments do, that triggers the emonthliments clause. there are a whole range of problems president trump needs to grass. >> elizabeth warn trying to force the clause to be enforced. this is dianne feinstein. this is what she said about a bill she would like to file, as well. >> senator feinstein, we understand that your colleague, senator warren, is going to introduce a bill to force the emonthliments clause. >> i grew with it. we're preparing our own bill. so my staff is comparing the two of them. she is clearly out first. and i would have only one question. there is no enforcement section in i think what she is preparing. so i've asked my staff to talk with her staff. and see -- we have an enforcement section. i don't know that i like it all
that well. but we do need something with enforcement. and the answer is, if we can solve that, yes, i will be happy to co sponsor the bill. >> david corn, are those hopeful signs, and is it possible they would get any republican support? >> i find it hard to believe they can get those bills passed over the objections of senator mitch mcconnell and speaker of the house ryan clearly rolling over for trump. joy, we literally could spend your whole two hour show detailing the myriad conflicts of interest that richard and curt and i have been talking about for months now. a few us of us writing and reporting on this. two i would point out quickly, is that donald trump owes about $300 million to deutsche bank. it's a foreign bank, but it's a foreign bank facing a $14
billion fine from the justice department for its role in the 2008 financial meltdown. he needs deutsche bank to keep some of his businesses afloat. is he going to get in there, a tremendous conflict of interest, about how the government is going to deal with that. and real estate partnerships that have $600 million in loans, that's what we know of from the state-owned bank of china that gets to the emonthliments clause and hasn't been hot to the chinese. literally dozens of cases like this that republicans are turning a blimd blind eye to. i'm sorry, we are out of time. we really could do two hours. >> we need those two hours. >> let's -- we'll do a full two hours on it. not a problem at all. cristina beltran is sticking around. we're going to do those two hours. coming up at noon, president obama talks about hacking in the
election. new reaction to what the u.s. could do about it. first, the trump transition team desperate for inaugural entertainment. when you have a cold, you just want powerful relief. only new alka-seltzer plus free of artificial dyes and preservatives liquid gels delivers the powerful cold symptom relief you need without the unnecessary additives you don't. store manager: clean up, aisle 4. alka-seltzer plus liquid gels.
♪ ♪ the land of the free ♪ and the home of the brave ♪ the brave when it comes to inaugural star power, beyonce's performance is a tough act to follow. but the trump inaugural team is trying. they have announced that the class overclassic singer with perform the national anthem an january 20th. you may remember her as the runner up on america's got
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call today. comcast business. built for business. mr. trump, what did you guys discuss in your meet to go ahead? >> just friends. just friends. he's a good man. >> no comment about your meeting with the president-elect. the president-elect of the united states. nothing to say? >> i just want to take a picture
right now. >> christine is still with us and ms. contributor and host of love city on how journalist john norris. i'm fan girling. i used to watch you guys every day. we're going this way first, because kanye and trump, wtf. >> i was extremely disappointed. being a kanye fan, which i am, means you're constantly defending kanye. for years, i've been saying most of the things you are complaining about he is in mourning for his mother. this is not about that. i'm trying to break down three things that i think that this is about that represent out of him, right? a sense of efficacy. i talked to a friend of his who said he thought that he could turn trump around. and efficacy is the entire -- an absurd level -- his mother told him he could be anything when everyone is saying you can't do that. but then as he moves into his
career. i'm going to be a pro vac tour. as he's gotten to this level of kim kardashian, 1% of the 1% beverly hills bubble, very distance from his audience. lil wayne saying racism is over. so you may think racism is over because nobody is racist toward kanye, so i can hang out with the president-elect and doesn't under the depth of pain this causes for his audience when he's normalizing him and hanging around with him, especially when we expect kanye who would be a major antagonist. >> i see a lot of similarities. they desire the respect of, you know, sort of the elite in the social world. like they wanted to be on the cover of "vogue" and trump wants the "new york times" to like him. seem very similar. >> for 20 years now -- 50 years in trump's case, from a place of
feeling not quite part of the club. and wanting those guys to let me in. and in kanye's case, the fashion world, as well as areas of music and demanding respect and feeling slighted. what have we want about trump? thin-skinned, quick to anger, vilifies enemies. both love twitter. embrace twitter. so i think, yeah -- plenty of similarities. and that -- we were talking about this before we came on. this tendency to sort of shoot from the hip from both of them. and do the, what some people call not politically correct speak. and i think it's a bridge -- kanye is too far -- crossed a line with a lot of people. certainly people i know. and i'm a fan. one of the most exciting artists of the last 15, 20 years and a vital artist. >> i have to put up the watch -- >> both of them is mirrored,
right? >> and christine -- while we put up a watch, that's pure trump. if trump was a rapper, that would be his album cover. >> for the republican party -- they would love to have kanye's support because it would signal popular culture acceptance, something republicans never get at the inauguration. >> they're going to put up a big karaoke machine. it's going to be a disaster, right? but i think -- this is what i love about kanye and trump together. narcissism combined with a deep sense of woundedness. chocolate and peanut butter. horrible. but the other thing -- so trump is a one-man-show in search of an audience. this man ins tensely ral and reactive. i think the idea that kanye things i can have influence is this idea that trump wants to say whatever pleases his audience. so will say build a wall and at
a debate, nasty woman. and with kanye, he'll say whatever he wants his audience to hear. they think -- it's his audience in that moment, and he'll say whatever they think he wants, and all we're left with is actual political appointments. >> both wrongly characterized as crazy. right? neither of them are crazy. crazy like a fox. we try to dismiss both of them. a lot of people are saying, why is he doing this? because he's mentally ill. no. this picture will be talked about and maybe i can change him. well, no. the things that he tweeted about that he wanted to ask trump about, all those questions have been answered by his appointment. >> i've got to get -- one time. one of the things most disappointing, there is this sense that hip pop has been a force of opposition. a force of social change. he's doing the opposite of that by aligning with trump. >> to speak to power. he's capable of that as in we
all remember 2005 george bush doesn't care about black people. >> that's right. >> and he has spoken out before many rappers did in favor of lgbt people. so kanye has absolutely -- can and has used his voice. >> we hope you can come back. we are going to run into the next show. maybe the next show will have us on. cristina beltran, do this again. join us tomorrow for more "a.m. joy." next, a diplomatic face-off. what message is china sending after seizing an american drone. sheinelle jones at the top of the hour. hippopotamus for christmas ♪ ♪ only a hippopotamus will do at the united states postal service, we deliver more online purchases to homes than anyone else in the country. and more hippopotamuses, too. ♪
with toothpaste or plain water.an their dentures and even though their dentures look clean, in reality they're not. if a denture were to be put under a microscope, we can see all the bacteria that still exists on the denture, and that bacteria multiplies very rapidly. that's why dentists recommend cleaning with polident everyday. polident's unique micro clean formula works in just 3 minutes, killing 99.99% of odor causing bacteria. for a cleaner, fresher, brighter denture every day. good day. i'm sheinelle jones in new york at msnbc world headquarters. high noon in the east, 9:00 out west. here's what's happening. the u.s./china standoff over a drone seems to be intensifying. donald trump takes to twitter over the drone situation. we'll tell you what he has tweeted this morning and how it fits into the