tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC January 7, 2015 11:00pm-12:01am PST
moment. french is resilient and french people at this moment just want to show to the world how they are united in the fight against terrorists. >> bill neely in paris, thank you very much for joining me tonight. >> you're welcome. >> chris hayes now continues our live coverage. an attack in paris leaves 12 dead. gunmen open fire on the offices of charlie hebdo. tonight, as the french fill the streets in protest, the latest in paris on the hunt for the gunmen. why these cartoonists and this magazine were targeted again and again and what this attack means for free speech around the world. appeal in search of two suspects.
they are cherif kouachi and said kouachi, two brothers in their 30s. police are calling anyone with office to contact the judicial police of paris. earlier this evening, police were on the ground overhead in helicopters. however, it's not clear what relation that operation has played in today's manhunt. french officials had previously identified three men as possible suspects in the massacre. the two brothers mentioned, as well as an 18-year-old accomplice hamyd mourad. pete, it's been a fluid situation today. where do things stand right now? >> the best that we know is they're still searching for the 34-year-old and the 32-year-old, the two brothers. there had been conflicting reports what happened to them but it's clear now they're on
the run. the french police are engaged in an all-out effort to find them. they've described them as armed and dangerous and asked for anybody in paris that know where is they might be anyone in france, anyone in europe who knows where they might be to let french authorities know. one of the puzzling things about today, chris, is whether two or three people were involved in this attack. the french authorities earlier today, the french prosecutor said there were three suspects. these two older men and the 18-year-old, the one apparently who has turned himself in tonight. it still isn't clear what role if any, the 18-year-old played whether he simply is someone the french want to question because they think he may have information, or what. so that's something that has to be sorted out. the second thing is that as i say, this has been fluid today. at one point, one of the french officials said that there had been an arrest then retracted it. earlier today, two u.s. counterterrorism officials told
us that one of the suspects had been killed and two were in custody. obviously that information was not right. they said that they couldn't substantiate or confirm it and from what we know now, it appears to have been wrong. we know there are two suspects that they're still looking for. unclear what the third one, what role if any he played in this and that will have to work itself out. a couple of other quick things chris. obviously the u.s. is looking at this. they found no indication in looking at their intelligence streams that there's any connection between these two or three and anyone in the u.s. secondly, no indication in the intelligence that there's any warning that was missed. and finally, no man of the u.s. to raise the terror alert level here. all they know is this was aimed at that magazine because of its previous publications about the prophet.
>> pete williams thank you so much. >> you bet. >> let's go to bill neely, live in paris tonight. i imagine a lot of people up early this morning, particularly for authorities, as apparently this manhunt continues. >> yes, chris. this is a city that's shocked at the worst terrorist attack in france in 54 years. a city fearful because two gunmen on the loose, there may be a massive manhunt around the country, but there are still two gunmen that police are describing as armed and dangerous. this is also a city that's defined. there were tens of thousands out on the streets tonight to show their solidarity with the journalists and with the magazine. the other
weapons entered the building. when they entered the offices, officials say the gunmen opened fire indiscriminately. >> translator: they went inside the offices. it's like a butcher inside there. there's so many dead. one of my colleagues is in critical condition. [ gunfire ] >> the attack lasted just minutes. meanwhile, journalists and neighbors took refuge on the roof. >> those who had been in nearby offices scrambled to the roof to escape. what fear must have gripped them. their phones captured the sight and sounds of the killers below. [ gunfire ] [ terrorists screaming "allah akbar" ] >> this is the day militants brought terror to paris. >> at the office the attackers
killed 11 people. after the attack the gunmen fled. witnesses say the gunmen yelled "we have avenged the prophet muhammad." on the run, they exchanged gunfire with police three times. video shows a gunmen killing an injured policemen, who said no no as he was shot. before they drove away one ficked up a shoe before getting into a black car. they continued on to a paris suburb where they abandoned the vehicle and hijacked another car. >> translator: the car came and stopped here armed men got out on the pavement and a threatening man had guns and what looked like a bazooka. they left and blocked everything. [ gunfire ] >> in total, 12 are dead, 11 injured, four critically. the magazine charlie hebdo had been a target for years. it's part of a long standing
tradition of french satirical magazines taking aim at organized religion and the political establishment. but the repeated depictions of the prophet muhammad put them under the threat of violence for nearly a decade. in 2006 the magazine republished cartoons of muhammad from a danish newspaper. charlie hebdo's offices were firebombed in 2011 after it names the prophet muhammad as its editor in chief. the following year it published a photo of the prophet naked. but none of that prompted them to stray from the magazine's mission. >> our job is not to defend freedom of speech. but without freedom of speech, we are dead. we can't live in a country
without freedom of speech. better to die than live like a rat, i don't know. >> the main comment says how there have been no attacks in france so far. but the figure of the armed militant replies, wait till the end of january before you get a gift from us. >> today, he was among those attacked. joining me now, author of "your fatwa does not apply here." my understanding is you got an opportunity today to interview one of the survooifg staff members of the publication. who was she and what did she will say in >> the person i interviewed was on the staff at charlie hebdo,
back when they published the muhammad cartoons and wrote articles that were in that issue. and she talked to me about her colleagues, former colleagues how they lived under threat since 2006 how their lives had never been the same again. she told me about the paper and how it was a progressive paper, a paper that defended secularism and challenged all fundamentalism and was staunchly anti-racist. she called on people around the world to fight against incitement on the internet saying there had been years of incitement against the staff and the journalists at charlie hebdo. but one thing i'll never forget is what she told me at the end, she said they will not make us put down our pens and talked about speaking with her former colleagues today, saying they were going to have an editorial meeting and get an issue out next week or the week after. >> i heard an interview she gave to an australian broadcaster,
talking about her plans to make sure there was. in terms of the way their lives changed around 2005 2006, they understood the risk they understood the threats they were under. they had been firebombed and hacked. this must have cast quite a shadow over their lives for years before this day. >> absolutely. the editor who was killed who you just spoke about, he said he would rather live on his feet -- excuse me he would rather die on his feet than live on his knees. he understood the risks. he knew why he was taking those risks. journalists and free thinkers across the muslim regions of the world are facing the risks. there have been death threats
against several of them. >> there does seem to be quite a defiance among those who have been intimidated. do you think we will see a backlash in france? the politics of this could get very ugly? >> just a first quick comment on defiance. i thought today of a statement written by an algerian journalist who survived a terrorist attack in 1996. she said pen against gun, is there anything more unequal? >> thank you so much. >> thank you. seems like many countries have gotten fairly good
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one thing you cannot say about the deadly terror attack against charlie hebdo in paris today is that no one saw it coming. the offices were under police protection. they were fire bombed after the magazine carried a caricature of the prophet mohammed. and al qaeda's branch in yemen instructed followers to kill stephane charbonnier in the form of a wanted poster in its online magazine with the headline, yes, we can, a bullet a day keeps the infidel away. charbonnier was killed in today's attack. the attack was more sophisticated than the attacks
from last year of so-called lone wolf attacks in canada and australia. these were attacks involving a small number of assailants using guns and little else whose actions did not require a high level of coordination necessary to pull off a larger scale mass casualty, a bombing like those in london or madrid. america and many other nations have appeared to developed a whole range of techniques to combat such large scale attacks. something one man or a small group armed with a gun or even just a vehicle, that seemed a different sort of challenge. joining me now is joint terrorism task force assistant special agent in charge don borelli. let's start off with what conclusion we might be able to draw from the video footage we have of the individuals as they walked through the streets. >> right. so this one seems like it's a beth of an in betweener. definitely more training, more sophistication than some of
these one-off lone wolves like we saw in australia and canada but maybe not the level of sophistication that we saw with a 9/11 attack or a london bombing, for example. they did seem to move very methodically, tactically, seemed like they had a good idea of where they were going, may not exactly but probably had done some reconnaissance. i would imagine that there had been reconnaissance done on this building, probably had some information from the inside, and the fact that they were not deterred by police. i mean, most people that are going to attack a soft target will see a police car and say, let's back off and find a different soft target. >> right, right. >> they went ahead and went for it even knowing that they were likely going to engage police activity. >> and exchange fire several times with police, murdered a police officer up close in cold blood. what is the investigative trail you follow if you're the french authorities right now? i mean, obviously, you have to find them. that's the most important thing.
>> you're going to want to build this whole timeline and this network. you're going to -- not just the people involved in this attack but who are their circle of influence, their friends, their families, where did they travel? it appears they did get some training. where did they get the training, where did they get the weapons, who financed them? was this their idea, was it somebody else's idea? a lot more questions than answers right now. but these are the pieces of the puzzle that the french with the help of the rest of their allies are going to want to put together to figure out are there more of these out there? is this one cell of many or is this a one off? >> we have seen these attacks, these sort of lone wolf attacks, or even in the boston bombing situation, which again the suspects named here, two of them are brothers, of course that was the case in the boston bombing, in which you have essentially disaffected violent militants who plot internally and pull something off, right? is it the case that essentially
the most we can hope for for a sort of security apparatus is to prevent large scale mass casualty events but that is an order of magnitude more difficult to prevent something like this on a soft target with a small number of conspirators if that's what it proves to be? >> it is very difficult. you strive to have 100%. >> of course. >> but the reality of living in a free society, especially one where guns are available, and you don't even need guns. >> canada, one individual who apparently still slight ambiguity, used a car. >> so whatever. if somebody is really that committed to an act of violence even if it's just a one person against, you know, a police officer or whatever, then it's very, very difficult to stop in a society where, you know, we have freedoms and openness and freedom to express, you know, our opinions and all these type of things. we don't live in a police state. that's the price we pay. unfortunately, sometimes is that
we cannot find everybody that's committed to an act of violence. >> there are some reports indicating that -- well, there are several reports indicating that one of the suspects involved here was previously convicted on charges of attempting to join the insurgency in iraq, that he actually served time. what is your knowledge, the degree to which the law enforcement officials have a handle on, you know, people that have connections to networks that might produce such an attack? >> again, it's very difficult because once somebody's in the system and then they get out, you're looking at, do you follow them 24 hours a day. you can't. that's very, very resource intensive. >> also, presumably there's a judicial argument, someone's convicted and they served their time. >> exactly. but you try to build a network of intelligence that would be people in the community, people that kind of are your eyes and ears. there are other technical surveillance. there's a lot of things you can
do, again, all within the legal framework. >> how long can you -- i mean, i have to say, surprised that they have not been apprehended as of yet when you consider the amount of resources that are being thrown as something like this. how long can you imagine plausibly they will be able to stay outside? >> with today's social media and crowd sourcing the information, i think not all that long. maybe they are in custody. i guess there's ambiguity about what the official status is. but once the names are released and people say, i know that person -- >> or i've seen their pictures. >> i've seen their picture. like we saw in boston, it was very soon after the photos were released that the information was flooding in. and that's likely what's happening right now in france, if in fact if they're maybe not already in custody. >> don borelli, thank you very much for your time. what seems to be a near-miss terror attack here in the u.s. that story is next.
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federal agents in colorado are on the lookout for a balding white man in his 40s who may be driving a dirty pickup truck. he's considered a person of interest in a case out of colorado springs where a homemade bomb was placed outside the naacp building. a statement, we are investigating all potential motives at this time and an act of domestic terrorism is certainly one possibility. there's very little damage to the office building.
it also houses a barber shop. thankfully nobody was hurt. but thins could have been much worse. the fbi said a gas can had been placed next to the device but did not ignite during the explosion. yesterday's attack happened in broad daylight while volunteers were working inside a local chapter of america's oldest civil rights organization. although it is not yet known if the motive behind the home-made explosive was a hate crime, the fbi is quoted as saying we believe it was deliberately set. a hate crime is one possibility. if the attack does in fact turn out to be an attempted act of terrorism or a hate crime, it would not be the first time the naacp had been targeted. in 1989 what was described as a tear gas mail bomb attack, the naacp's atlanta offices injured eight people including an infant. and of course there's medgar evers to became the first field officer in mississippi who was assassinated in 1963. congressman and civil rights icon john lewis said i'm deeply troubled by the bombing in colorado.
it reminds me of another period. these stories cannot be swept under the rug, #naacpbombing. joining me now is jesse hall who has been covering the story for the "denver post." jesse, what is the latest as of this hour? >> we still don't know too much beyond what the fbi said yesterday. i spoke to an fbi spokeswoman this morning who basically said that they weren't ready to release any new details in the case. i was down there this morning at the naacp office and at the barber shop, that building, the federal investigators were gone, all the evidence had been taken away. and except for some minor damage to the building you wouldn't really know the attack actually happened. >> did anyone see this happen when it happened? and is that how the description of the person of interest came about? >> yeah. i mean, it's unclear if there was a direct witness to the actual explosion. what i was basically told was that there were some neighbors that saw this person of interest fleeing from the area after the
explosion happened. but this happened in broad daylight. a really nice day down in colorado springs. this naacp office is not in a strip mall, it's in a small community, there's lots of people around, lots of people heard the blast. >> is the understanding that the item that ignited was placed next to a gasoline can, the can was there as an improvised explosive device intending to create a much larger explosion? >> i think that's what the fbi has been alluding to, but again i think it's really important to mention that the fbi hasn't definitively said that the naacp was the target of what appears to be an intentional explosion. there was this barber shop there. i spoke with the barber today. he said, i have no enemies. there's no way this was me. the overall feeling is that this was targeted at the naacp, but i think it's important to mention that there hasn't been official word yet saying that the naacp office there was the direct
target. >> we should also say the naacp itself has been relatively cautious about all this. yesterday they were sort of tamping down any speculation that it might have been of a political nature. they continue to do their work. jesse paul, thank you very much. >> thank you. more on the latest developments in today's terror attack in paris, next.
there are conflicting reports at this hour on whether french authorities currently have two of the suspects in today's attack in their custody. earlier in the hour, pete williams told me he heard from some u.s. officials that one of the suspects had been killed, the remaining two were taken into custody. while other u.s. officials are saying that's not what they've been told. french authorities won't say. there's reports that reporters on the ground all night said there were no shots fired, no signs of a suspect killed or arrested in reims outside paris. the afp, the french wire service reports that the youngest of the
three suspects has in fact surrendered to police. all around the world tonight people have been taking to the streets to show solidarity. holding signs that read je suis charlie, i am charlie. in iran writers and journalists are holding a vigil for their fallen comrades. so charlie can live, three major media companies offer equipment to the remaining staff so "charlie hebdo" can continue to function after eight journalists were gunned down this morning. cartoonists around the world have been responding to the deaths of some of their most prominent colleagues as only they can. there's this cartoon from david pope, retweeted nearly 60,000 times and counting. this one posted to unofficial facebook page of banksy. or this, arms with a cartoonist's tools.
they find themselves in the cross hairs of the institutions and the individuals they ridicule. perhaps most famously the controversy in 2005 and '06 over danish cartoonists depicting the prophet mohammed that set off death threats against the artists and others. even now cartoonists are coming under threat in places like turkey. they've been cracking down on cartoon satire. pulitzer prize cartoonist and the president of the board of directors of the cartoonists rights network international joel pett. your reaction to today's massacre? >> hi, chris. well, any of us who have been fortunate enough to meet cartoonists from around the world, go to cartooning confabs as i have been in asia and africa and even in soviet era russia have recognized that this is a tribe of really like-minded kindred spirits.
and it transcends nationality and even political ideology. we just like each other. and, you know, we share the same sort of soul searching laments about the human condition on good days, and on days like this, it's just pretty tough to take. >> the phenomenon of cartoonists finding themselves as subject of threats is more widespread than i think you might -- or folks might imagine. the danish cartoon controversy was the most publicized, but in your role, the organization you serve on the board of, i mean, this is something that happens across the world every day. >> yeah, it certainly is. if you look at cartoonist rights network international's website, you'll see that we have clients all over the world and this happens on a very small scale, of course, so it doesn't make headlines all the time. usually not from terrorists, but at the hands of their own
government, who, you know, intimidate and otherwise try to control this kind of free speech that is uncontrollable. >> what is it about the medium that makes it so feared and powerful? i mean, we're having -- you're seeing people -- we're having internal debates over whether we'll show some of the more offensive or provocative cartoons. nbc news has decided we should not as have other networks. there is something about the potency of those images that packs a punch that mere words or monologues don't seem to. >> you know, that's true. i think part of it is that it's difficult to respond to ridicule and satire. i mean, if somebody draws you like a turtle, the way i do our senator mitch mcconnell, you just can't write back and say, i'm not a turtle. and it's hard to respond to humorous satire and ridicule, and if you're smart you just go along with it, and if you're not, you try to stop it by
force, which unfortunately happens all too often. >> is there a sense tonight among the tribe you talked about of collective grief, collective solidarity and what steps to take in defiance of this? >> well, certainly there is. and as you said earlier, the only thing we know to do is draw more cartoons. but the pen may be mightier than the sword in the long run but there are certainly days when it sure doesn't feel like it for right now. i think everybody shares the same sort of feeling of helplessness. for me, and i can't speak for the rest of the cartooning world on this, it is things like this are a wake-up call to not waste the opportunity that we have, any of us fortunate enough to have a platform in this country or anywhere else, to draw satire, need occasional reminders, not like this, of
course, but that -- i hate to call it a serious business because clearly it isn't, but there is some obligation to, if you're going to be a provocateur, to provoke the right people and the right institutions for the right reasons. so, you know, little as that might be, that's what i take away from it. >> the idea that there's a kind of -- in this satirical enterprise, a sort of solemnity to the actual weight that you bear in doing something that's as meaningful and powerful that it is that people kill over it. >> yeah, it's hard to fathom that. you know, for all of the international incidents that we have at cnri tried to mitigate, there are very few of them in this country. and i think it's a combination of the fact that, well, first of all, the corporations have done a pretty good job of silencing the cartoonists simply by laying
us off, so much more civilized, but secondly and more seriously, i think that we don't take the kinds of chances, publishers and editors, cartoonists will, but publishers and editors in this country don't take the kinds of chances that some others do around the world. it's impossible really to imagine "the new york times" or "the wall street journal," neither of which even run political cartoons or "usa today" which, to their credit, do, really taking on something that had a real cutting edge possibility of provoking, you know, something big. >> yeah, it's hard to imagine a large american publication that would be running precisely the cartoons that were being run in this publication which we should note had a relatively small circulation. this was not le monde. >> yes, this was a satire journal, not a large daily, but even le monde runs page one
editorial cartoons by jean-claude plateau against the jihadists. it takes guts to do that. >> if today's attack on the offices of "charlie hebdo" were in retaliation for the publication's representation of the prophet mohammed, what does that mean for the future of free speech? i'll be joined by a panel including someone whose father was threatened in his home home after speaking out against fundamentalism and terrorism.
today's bloody attacks in paris come in the context of a long running debate in france, europe, and across the world about the right to offend, what free speech and satire look like. in an age when media is global. the barbarity of what happened today has me reconsidering some things i used to think. more on that ahead.
at the exception of some jihadi supporters on twitter, the muslim world's condemnation of today's attack in paris has been more or less unanimous. organizations alike denouncing the shooting. at this point the attack appears to are been retaliation for the satirical magazine's representation of the muslim prophet muhammad. if that bears out, this is a stick of dynamite thrust into what is a deep and dangerous fault line running through france, europe and the world. a divide over freedom of expression and what constitutes legitimate debate in an era of global media, when something published one place is something published everywhere. at a time of heightened tensions of identity and security in europe, today's attacks, like the isis beheadings, they're crafted to play into the worst fears of the jihadist threat. every bit as barbaric as you have been led to believe and they'll come for you. when i first heard about the murders at the magazine's office, i remember the
controversy over danish cartoons mocking the prophet mohammed. at the time i thought those cartoons were stupid, offensive and many were racist. if i were running a magazine i wouldn't publish them nor offer praise to those who did. they seemed to be a pointless prank. but upon seeing today's murders, i admit to reconsidering. i can't help feeling that what happened today retroactively enabled the cartoons because the magazine hebdo and its staff were actually genuinely subject to violent reprisals, reprisals they stood up against courageously and at a tremendous cost, a cost we're seeing today. standing up against intimidation, that is noble even if the cartoons themselves may not always be. we discuss the fine line they walk next.
her father was the subject of death threats after he taught about darwin. and arsalan iftikhar, senior editor of the islamic monthly. all right. let me start with you. what is your reaction to today? and does what happened today change your -- the prior beliefs you had yesterday about speech, offensiveness, violence and intimidation? >> i'm completely horrified by what happened today. and like so many people of muslim heritage around the world, i do, want to say, i am charlie, in arabic -- [ speaking foreign language ] and in french -- [ speaking foreign language ] we stand in solidarity with the victims and the people across france. this has confirmed my belief that muslim fundamentalist movements are one of the major human rights threats we face around the world and we have to
defeat those movements. >> what does that mean, though? what does defeat mean? >> it means first going after and discrediting the ideology that motivates them. it means exposing their terrorist atrocities. unfortunately, what happened today has been repeated across muslim majority regions across the world. it reminds me of an attack in algiers in 1996. so it means exposing the way they've victimized so many civilians including people of muslim heritage themselves. it means, in the case of the armed wing of these movements we've seen operating today, it means dismantling and taking apart and taking away the funding from those movements. and i think part of what it means is that people of muslim heritage around the world have a responsibility to speak out against these atrocities, against the movements that carry them out, against the apologists for them. we have a responsibility to be as courageous as the people on the frontlines. people today are speaking out in
places like algeria, even somebody from sudan signed a petition in support of the journalists at "charlie hebdo." we need to have that courage, as well. >> i want to show you an image that people have been talking about this magazine and i've heard the phrase, equal opportunity offender. here's one cartoon. at one point they sort of found themselves condemned by -- from rabbis, catholic priests and islamic clerics. and there are going to be people today, tomorrow, friday night on bill maher who basically say, well, look who -- they offended everyone, they went after jesus, they went after catholics, they went after jews and it's only the muslims who react violently. what are you going to say to the people who are going to and are saying that right now? >> chris, i think it's important to keep in mind that the acts of three murderers, gunmen in paris, france, do not equate to the acts of 1.7 billion muslims on the face of the earth.
it's important to keep in mind that the 2005 danish cartoon, the fire bombing at charlie hebdo headquarters in paris, we're in 2015 now, a lot of these cartoons are not even new. it's important for free speech advocates and first amendment freaks around the world and in western and eastern societies to stand up in solidarity against any sort of violence perpetrated against people who are just trying to exercise free speech. we all know that free speech is not absolute. you know that there's no western liberal newspaper on the face of the earth that would publish anti-semitic cartoons and rightly so for understandable reasons. when it comes to islam and muslims, this sort of conflation in terms of the need for muslim public intellectuals and leaders to come out and condemn, obviously which we have today
still remains large because we want the rest of western societies to know that we're part and parcel of our nations. one of the 12 people who were actually killed, the 42-year-old policeman. >> that's right. >> who was gunned down on the sidewalk was actually a muslim. >> right. >> so we're as much victims in this as anybody else. and you know, we are horrified and saddened by the tragedy today. >> michael, i think of you as kind of a maximalist on this. i think you and i probably have very different views of the decision to publish the danish cartoons. you thought they were a place worthy endeavor. >> i even published them, too. on the website i ran in sweden after a website in sweden was shut down for publishing them. >> my feeling today is a very good post if it turns out if a
large enough group of people is willing to murder you for something, then saying that thing actually turns out to be something that needs to be said. but there is also the case of this question sort of offense for offense's sake. and i guess what is your thinking about this? >> i mean, i can't question their motivations. i don't want to go around saying that "charlie hebdo" and fleming rose in denmark didn't, i know fleming rose, but -- >> did you do it for the right reason? >> i hear this a lot today that charlie hebdo is a left wing, it's a left wing, i don't care if it's a right wing. nobody deserves to go to jail, to be blown up, to be shot for these things. fantastic intro to your first guest, it's right to say, as everyone does say ad nauseam but not all 1.7 billion muslims are terrorists. let's flip that here. not all 1.7 billion muslims are offended, by the way. many in the muslim world, many
liberals in the world who are muslim are protesting against this and against censorship, too. >> it does get inverted. the assumption of offense can be stereotyping as the assumption of extremism. >> absolutely. and the research that i did on muslim opposition to fundamentalism, i interviewed a wonderful arts promoter in lahore, pakistan, and he said to me sitting in lahore, this is somebody whose own festivals had been attacked, he said if the prophet mohammed would have seen these cartoons, he would have had a laugh. muslims can appreciate satire. and we have to defend the right to blaspheme, which is different than the right to discriminate, which i absolutely oppose. >> do you worry about what tomorrow and the next week and the next month looks like in france and around europe as the backlash to this grows?
>> in germany in the last few weeks there have been 17,000 people showing up at anti-muslim protests all around the country. this is only going to exacerbate that. there are reports that show the gunmen were screaming things like, we are avenging the prophet and they've done nothing but disgraced the prophet. the prophet was insulted many times in his life and never once did he kill anybody in retribution for that. this is completely devoid of religion. this is pure mass murder, plain and simple. it doesn't matter the nationality or the religion of the perpetrators, this is a crime against humanity. >> i would say this, whether it's devoid of religion or not, we don't definitively know, we have witness accounts they shouted about the prophet. it was meant to do something very specific, which is create retribution and to intimidate people who are engaging in speech. that is what has so brought people out of the woodwork across the world, across a lot
of faiths in opposition to it. >> i think that's the backbone of this is in very, very radical reading of islam, but it is a political ideology. this doesn't surprise me that this happened, unfortunately. i think the political fallout from this is very worrying because the party in france is vacillating between the biggest party, same thing, danish people's party. >> that's the story to sort of continue. >> it's a depressing end. >> thank you very much. that's "all in" for this evening. rachel maddow show starts now. >> thank you very much. thanks to you at home for joining us for the next hour. we do actually have breaking news right now about the search for the three suspects in the paris massacre today. nbc news' pete williams says he is hearing from french authorities now that the youngest suspect of the three suspects has surrendered to french authorities. the french wire service is also