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tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  April 8, 2015 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT

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>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight, another republic candidate paul rand from kentucky. we'll talk about that and more in the world of politics with john heilemann and mark halperin. >> he wants to appeal to young voters he wants to appeal to voters not taking part of the political process before. he wants to appeal to independent and wants to appeal to some democrats. >> rose: we conclude with katrina vanden heuvel editor of the nation magazine looking back 100 years. >> in that context there are a lot of causes waiting to be won and i'm also excited charlie i think it's an eruption it's a
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moment of, it's a movement moment and the nation over these years has been reporter of movements and the change the deep transformational change movements can bring. whether it's 400000 people in the street, the climate march, whether it's the immigrant rights movement, whether it's fast food workers. you know, the student death strikes. these are movements we are in touch with. >> we conclude with john elderfield and peter galassi about the paintings in the studio. >> take on the art of the past and in the end, there's a great moment in the past which is probably never going to be surpassed. they really are things which people have to work against and learn from and you know.
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but it will never succeed if they simply try and repeat. so outcomes continue to change. >> rose: politics for the race of the presidency 2015 the history of the nation's magazine and paintings and photographed in the studio. all that when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.
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>> rose: we begin this evening with politics, kentucky senator rand paul announced earlier today his decision to run for president in 2016. he's the second republican candidate after texas senator ted cruz to officially center the race. rand paul is the only libertarian to announce his candidacy. >> we come to take them back the special interests this more concerned with their personal welfare than the general welfare. the washington machine that gobbles up our freedoms and invades every new and cranny of our lives, must betoo often when republicans have won we've squandered our victory. by becoming part of the washington machine. that's not who i am.
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>> rose: joining me now from louisville kentucky is mark halperin and john heilemann. they're the hosts of the show with all due respect. let me begin with mark halperin. tell me about the rand paul announcements and how he's get cannng the candidacy, mark. >> they're on the ohio river well choreographed event introduced by his wife who i think will become a very strong presence in this race kelly paul. he gave a speech which was basically his message, some of the recover edges shaped out in the so-called liberty awe jelled all his father ron pawld was in the area but the photographers could not capture two of them in the same shot. this is a guy who is not afraid, raised a lot of money and in iowa, hampshire and south care.
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he believes he can go buy the mantra that john and i created for him that says the republican partydskl÷ too small and the government is too big and that he will stand out appealing to new constituencies with a different kind of message than anybody else has. it's a bet and is premised on the notion that the rules of the non-nation fight will be different if they're the same they've been since reagan, he can't win, if the rules are different i think he will be a fine list in this contest. >> when ted cruz announced he's a republican obama, that's in the big stadium and gave a compelling speech. but therey,b=lwith that which was ted cruz was, the way that obama won the name nation in 2008 was by appealing to not just democrats, not just the democratic base but independents and some republicans. that's not what ted cruz is trying to do he's trying to get more of the same republicans. rand paul has a more obama-like pitch in that he wants to appeal to young voters he wants to appeal to voters not taking part
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of the political process before. he wants to appeal to independents economy wants to appeal to some democrats. >> rose: and african americans. >> yes. his criminal justice reform. he said today a really extraordinary thing. he said he wanted to repeal any law that had a disproportionate impact on minorities in terms of incarceration. charlie that's most of the criminal justice, most of laws in the books have a disproportionate effect. that's a rather striking thin to say. will that help him win the republican nomination? there's a lot of reasons to be skeptical about that but in a place like iowa where he starts with his father's libertarian supporters, many of those people will stick with him. if nothing else he inherits the list of those supporters who his father got in 2012, 2008. he starts there and he can use those lists and look for like minded voters and go and preach this gospel that is very different from standard republicanism right now on foreign policy, on civil liberties, on a lot of issues. very different. so he has a chance to make that
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pitch of expanding the universe. >> rose: he's having to back a little bit from the so-called isolationist position. >> that's his biggest problem right now in the time of war the traditional republican strength and military assertiveness which have not been his calling card before, they are predominant in the party and he's trying to get to a little bit more conventional place. >> rose: is iowa crucial, because cruz has a claim in iowa and people say he'll do good then you have reason paul. >> it's super important if you look at a guy like jeb bush marco rubio gets in the race those been big establishment. walker's playing both sides but guys like bush and rubio are more established candidates. they will be stronger new hampshire candidates than iowa candidates. if you're one of the other guys running in establishment bracket iowa becomes very important because you're going to have a harder time in new hampshire. you have to put a win on the board and iowa's a better
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opening for a ted cruz or rand paul or mike huckabee or santorum. they are the two past winners santorum and huckabee. there will be a big scrub trying to get through on theje9y establishment lane trying to chalk a win up on the hawkeye state. >> rose: we've had two announcements now, one ted cruz and rand paul. paul is all weak not just one big e investment at liberty college. what's his most impressive so far. >> very difference kind of announcements. include was very powerful rhetorically. he was in a giant room, he gave a great speech. the crowd was there by force. they were compelled, they were students who didn't come flock to that event. cruz is great on stage and he got a nice bump in the poll. paul is harder to judge because we've seen the first part of it the that was a smaller room but more enthusiastic room. he's not a great orator.
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his ability to really command the stage he was not as potent as cruz was. but what he's trying to show with this multistate tour he's a big time operator. that he has an organization already in place or the nucleus of one in iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, other places. that demonstrates kind of organizational muscle. again inherited from his father, not entirely but that is a different kind of strength he's displaying than the one ted cruz did at liberty. >> rose: is that what this race is b republicans on the right, conservatives, tea party want to see someone early on clear the fields so it can go one-on-one because they believe that the establishment has each time won the nomination and each time lost. >> i think it's a little more complicated than that. there's no doubt that the anti-establishment part of the party does not want to see the establishment part of the party win.
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and they want as mark suggested at the very beginning of this interview, they want to show they are now the ascendant part of the republican party and they think another establishment numb near will not be a winner against hillary clinton that you have to run in a different way thinking that hillary clinton is the nominee. i don't think anybody has an assumption there's a clearing of the fields until we get to iowa, new hampshire or south carolina in that side of the party. the interesting thing is even in the establishment wing of party there are people who like jeb bush fine. but are really concerned about the notion that you would run a bush against a clinton and guy doing that you would forfeit the argument of we are new, we are the future. so there are people in this town who are on wall street. jeb bush is great with money no doubt about it, but wall street big donors are looking at scott walker and writing him checks. there are people who will right checks for marco rubio. he's posed to announce his canned deon monday. there are establishment players
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who are going to write checks for marco rubio. they are this quiet about jebhk3 bush in the party. what he has not done in the shock and awe period in in early roll out he's established that he is in it to win it and he's going to raise a ton of morning and those things matter a lot. but he hasn't cleared the field. >> rose: he can't clear the field this early. >> there are people who thought if he raised a hundred million dollars in the first quarter that someone like marco rubio wouldn't run against them for instance. there would be in the establishment side that people would say whoa bush has already too much institutional support i'll step back not that he on clear the whole field no. one is running scared of jeb bush right now. they're looking at the poll numbers and they see he has real problems on immigration, he has real problems on common core, has real problems with large segments of the republican electorate. no one right now is running scared of jeb bush. even though he looks very strong. no one thinks he looks unstoppable. >> rose: what's the latest on the hillary clinton campaign? >> well it would seem as you
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know charlie, 245e just announced the other day look out a lease on a place in brooklyn for her camp headquarters. >> rose: what was behind that decision. >> i think it's simple enough, she's from new york now, right and she's not going, she's going to run this campaign out of new york that was clear. and i think there are some who say that she wanted the hip, youthful cool brooklyn speaking of somebody who lives in brooklyn. i have spent some time in brooklyn heights. it's like the upper east side. there's nothing behind or cool about brooklyn heights. it's a perfectly nice neighborhood but there are no arches or pickle makers there. a lot of people working on her complain will end up living in brooklyn. it's easy in terms of access to the airport. that's important. i think it's about more about that stuff. >> rose: when will she announce. >> we're going to see it it has been reported by others that word has gone out it will be quote anyway day. but i would÷ say that sunday this coming sunday or a few days,
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within a few days after that would be the likeliest. >> rose: within a week. >> within a week. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> always. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: this year marx the 150th anniversary of the nation magazine. it was founded by a group of young abolitionists in 1865. its focus on issues such as civil rights, income inequality and corporate power has made it a leader of the american left. katrina vanden heuvel had been the magazine's editor for 20 years. she started there as an intern. i'm pleased to have her back at this table. what has it meant to you, the nation. >> the nation has meant, the nation was where i learned about journal subpoena where -- journalism, it was a boot camp it was a school what you don't learn in a university. it's a a an america that you don't learn about in school but a sense of coming in at age 19
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and there was the great andy copkind, christopher hitchens had just arrived from london in an exchange. the pulitzer prize winning, christopher came to the office. and there was just a lot of whirling discussion and argument. and it was a place where you learned about debate, civil, uncivil. and you learned about dissent and you learned about rebellious voices. it was a space, literally a physical space for such. for three thinkers for dissenters and then of course the pages were spilled over edited and thought through. it was a great school and much more it was fun exciting literary political place. you talked about civilyou talked about corporate power. but it has a great literary tradition too which one was steeped in it with betsy and the
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literary editor taking on norman mailer. >> rose: james -- >> you learned when you got there i think is also that you know, william faulkner when we get it right the past is not dead it's not even past. but i mean you learned about a james baldwin. you'd go back into the archives. now they're digitized but literally the volumes. and you'd read a james baldwin from 1966 in the special issue. report from occupied territory harlem. he writes about stop and for example charlie. you think today as i work with youngerdof turbulence around black life matter and any racial justice movement, there are younger writers going back into those archives digitally now but learning so much from a an extraordinary writer like james ball win who by the was on our editorial board and wrote his
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first view. a review of maxine gore key. >> rose: you mentioned -- martin luther king jr. >> he wrote an essay on the civil rights movement in 1961 and 1966. in his issue we have his last report where he begins to talk about economic justice. he was some of the great editor. >> rose: which is where he was. >> when he was in memphis in 1968, he was speaking to the garbage collectors. it wasn't just in the pages in 1967, two monthsúcçy/ó before king gave his famous riverside church speech coming out against vietnam. at a nation event in los angeles in february 1967 first came out against the war. and i'll tell you charlie as we near the 50th anniversary as we do of the sending of american
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troops to vietnam 50 years, the nation, and this is what i also learned at the nation and not to be afraid of it that heretical ideas in one moment can be common sense a generation later. in 1954 bernard -- the great historian of vietnam wrote in the pages to the nation maybe a negotiated solution would be better than a military intervention. >> rose: this is 150th anniversary publication. >> nearly two years in the works. my co- editor, the great journalist who was the nation's washington correspondent for a few years 30's and 40's has a piece in there. we spent almost two years. izzy stone a great journalism who understood maybe it's better not to go to too many dinner parties, sit with them and understand that governments,
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they often lie. we didn't do an anthology. a lot of places might have done an anthology. we did one for the 100th, 105th. this has great archival material. >> rose: you quote the first woman editor of the nationfrieda should be approached -- >> that means you would be stuck in the past. what we want to do at this moment is say we are here we're present we have survived and survival in this media -- >> rose: it's hard to survive in a -- >> there are different reasons for survival. i suggest one is independence, not only independence of thought but independence of ownership. our backers have cared more about what we stood for than
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what we made. though we're always happy to bring in partners. we have an interesting financial. >> rose: was paul newman part of that. >> paul newman was a partner. we have a number of partners but we have a great circle of one hundred that gives each year. those that give small amounts each here, 25-30% of our subscribers give 25, 50 a hundred dollars. there's a sense of community. >> rose: you're planning a new website. >> part of the future. i mean you've had different editors here, charlie. i mean, we're all, the old order is changing. i think we're in a revolutionary transitional time. so you have to have a foot in different places but right now we're read by 500,000 people each week on all kinds of tablets and platforms. on the actual birthday of the nation when these young abolitionists launched the nation july 6 1965, we launched a site which i think is going to
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be intelligent nimble, innovative and for younger years. >> rose: i want to use two clips before we start. first is by our great friend calvin, this is in 2003 on his view of the magazine. here it is. you write for the nation magazine too. >> absolutely. >> rose: are your politics right there with them. >> they always accuse me in the9ó nation of being insufficiently political. letting the agony of the voice dim from my memory. and i did say once on a television show. i said i was in boston once with a book of nation columns and the guy said well how would you describe the nation magazine. and i said pinko. i would say it's a pinko magazine. well surely you have more to say about it than that. i said yes it's a pinko
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magazine printed on very cheap paper that is a sort of magazine that if you have a piece in the magazine, the copy'sf;-ñm a lot better than the original. >> rose: are your politics and the nation i mean is that where you are on the political spectrum? your is your politics none of my business. >> no, they're certainly your business. i agree more with the nation than i do with the national review. >> i love bud. to go cruising with blood and he writes in the issue. he writes about going cruising. >> rose: you were struck by the continuing conversations of so many of the contributors. they stay as part of the conversation. >> stay as part of the conversation. you know to go from bud to this but to be, you know. one of the great animating impulses and principles of the nation has been anti imperialism. opposition to wreckless wars.
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spanish american war. vietnam war. into iraq. and i speak about you know in iraq because i was editor then and you had -- >> rose: both iraq wars. >> i'm thinking 2002. and you had a great correspondent or2f peace correspondent jonathan shallom and continuing series of a continuing conversation if i recall. but i think that was a defining moment and it was not a popular. listen the nation is not a popular organ often because remember that many of the liberal, much of the liberal media decided to go along with the war, the run up to the war 2002. and the nation opposed and here again i come back to that you know what is heretical at some time is common sense. everyone now believes iraq i think that war was a debacle, has played out in the sectarian
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sunni shi'ite struggles and others we see in the middle east. there was a deep animating i pull that this was contrary to american tradition preemptive war. unconstitutional. related to that charlie was in the rushed war we be strayed our very own principles. civil liberties have also been a part of the nation's tradition. the patriot act, the torture which we started writing about in 2003 al press one of our young writers in torture we trust looking at the media and its averting its eyes from torture. so these are this is part of the impulse. the nation, you know, was part of the founders were part joined mark twain's -- so you can see the continuities. >> rose: you were close. >> he's a mentor in many ways but he's a non-interventionist mentor. he jokes that he's there to tell me -- >> rose: he was a --
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>> he was my predecessor. he has a brilliant essay in this issue. victor's passion through the years has been the mccarthy era. he wrote an extraordinary book naming names.he just finished a book about a guy named jack owe dell who was very close to martin luther king, jr. in this essay and here again is what i write about in my introduction there are always alternatives and victor's piece is looking at what mccarthyism, that period in the 50's into the 60's and the 40's or what he calls hooverrism because we're learning more and more what he did. the ideas we're stigmatized, the people's whose voices was marginalized, conformity that was enforced. the name of false fear of communism. and charlie that too is a correspondence. you think about fear, the fear we continue to live with that under mines the very principles. >> rose: take a look at this. this is victor on the legacy of
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the nation. here it is. >> in the case of our magazine it's been a historical identification with the dispossessed. and you know it grew out of the a abolitionist movement. but simultaneous with that was a journalistic ideal that it would tell the truth wherever it led. so you have this double legacy, and in connection with this magazine in the first sent tups of the first issue of the first story which was the leak was singularly baron of exciting events. now as a launching sentence imagine tina brown launching her new magazine with singularly baron of exciting somethingant events. what that says we're not going to be part of the buzz the hype. we're going to tell the truth as unsentizational as it may be wherever it leads.
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>> rose: you also have pieces which turned out to be left prophetic. >> one was and i come b - tothe cultural tradition. we have henry james writing a scathing review of walt whitman. now he came to regret that. >> rose: whitman survived it. >> whitman survived. of course the nation at a different point tracks the arc of liberalism. the greatest historian writes about that. the naig was part of the new york post from 1881 to 19, into the early -- >> rose: there's also people like christopher hitchens who came. >> so we have rick pearlstein the historian has a piece about those who came to the nation has left it and who left it as appear states. christopher hitchens was but you
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had ronald and david horowitz. christopher left. the nation pages were open to him. we were ready as i said for a brawl, fight, civil uncivil debates. but he left, former socialist but left saying they had become amoral because of the unwillingness to hitch its star to the coming war in iraq. christopher was, you know, but there was a black and white charlie, to that and i think part of the nation's strength i would argue is that it's for people who understand and saver complexity and are ready for a fight but that complexity is often lost i think when you move from you know, left to right. >> rose: christopher was always ready for a fight. >> but i think by hitching his star to bush's war. >> rose: he would not say -- >> he did tie in with -- therefñi was a --
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>> rose: for him. >> there was a principal stance so there was a regret when he and this happens in our politics and culture when you live in d.c. you have to join forces but he had a principal sense as others did. and you know, he was a great, he was an extraordinary part of the nation for many years. but rick pearlstein piece i think is worth reading for all who see what you know in our culture right now i think there is too much dumbing dumb. >> rose: this is a clip from the documentary. >> if you look at the consumer regulatory part of washington, it's a tiny part of the budget and a tiny part of the number of the government employees. less than 1%. >> there are many stores that the nation broke over the years. a harvard law student and ralph nader did this eskimo -- es po
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say -- it's not accidently that a car had noticing or cigarette advertising boeing these two stories. >> ralph nader continues to call me to this day. every few weeks he begins by berating me for what we're not doing and then he has ideas. and you have to respect that tenacity. he came on the cruise a few years ago when we went to alaska. when he got on the cruise of that ship they wanted to throw him overboard. there's a younger generation who doesn't remember as we say about labor unions they brought us the weekend he brought us the seatbelt, right.kzñ'i but they think of him and the nation has had a long respect for third matters and third party battles in 20 there were barricades inside the office
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literally, which side were you on, gore, nader. you have to respect that capacity and staying power. he will be with us another 50 years. >> rose: where is the nation today as it celebrates 150 years. where is it going and how does it make its way among a very ditch media landscape. >> i think the different media landscape worries me less. i think we're testing and we got a demographic on the web 24-35 got mobile and digit. >> rose: you want to use the web for instant access to all this. >> that's downloadable that whole issue. >> rose: not just the issue the history of the magazine. >> the history of the magazine. so we have archives, digitized archives. but charlie i think we don't know where this is heading. remember a few years ago the conventional wisdom was people wouldn't read long form journalism on the internet. i think that conventional wisdom
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has been up ended and part of the nation is also challenging the orthodoxy. years ago i continue to believe this is a country where you need rebellious dissident voices. you need quality journalism you need bold ideas you need to push the parameters of what seems politically possible. we are an early alert system. we have been through a time. i think of the reporting we did on cuba, not only did we make but we shaped history. you warned of the bay of pigs we warned when glass seeingal was repealed in 1999 what it would lead to. we did appear issuesá of inequity in 2008 and publish it tomorrow about occupy -- >> rose: the battles that the nation has not about are still issues facing the country. >> absolutely. i mean here's in short form. the nation, i don't believe in lost causes.
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i believe in causes waiting to be won. in that context there are a lot of causes waiting to be won. and i'm also excited charlie because i think it's an eruption, it's a moment of, it's a movement moment and the nation over these years have been reporter of movements and the change, the deep transformational movements can bring whether it's the 400,000 people in the street the climate march whether it's the immigrant rights movement, whether it's fast food workers. the student debt strike. these are movements we are in touch with and at the same time as i write in my short piece, i'm a firm believer in inside outside. you need those principal leaders inside the system. the debate around soma came johnson that debate came today which is why you need an elizabeth warn inside. >> rose: would you like to
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see liz bell warren run. >> i would like to see a contested competitive primary. i think elizabeth warren is someone who speaks more clearly, more powerfully more plainly about the crises of this country. the rigged system that damages people. i think the presidential election and the system and the money primary is so brutal that i worry sometimes that one would lose the crystal clear power of her voice on the issues that she is passionate about. and she had have tos/ take a stance on so many others. >> rose: you write the one constant has been faith. political parties or policies but what can hatch when you -- happen when you tell the people the truth. >> it's a belief in the people. it's a believe organize people, people in motion. listen charlie, i think that we're at a moment of we're in
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the fight of our lives for people control of our government and corporate power. these are tech tronnic times on so many fronts but i still have hope and you got to keep home awe lie. >> rose: thank you again. >> thank you. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. the artist studio has been a point of fascination among artists, critics and viewers throughout history. like artwork itself the spaces where art is made help explain the spirit of the times and the mind of a creator. it is the subject in a payer of major exhibitions currently at the gagosian gallery. in the studio paintings and in the studio photographs. together they present nearly 200 burke works exploring the studio's development over several even trees. joining me are john elderfield is the chiefsculpture at the human of modern art. parrot gleefs is the former chief curator of photography.
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i'm pleased to have them back at this table. welcome. when did this project begin. >> it began 20 years ago when a jenld of mine has been at jeff coons' skewed oh and he said this is no studio i've seen. it's like a workshop with lots of people there.leñi and then it led to thinking well what is life over the years, where did this start what was the difference between a workshop and a studio. artists always wear tulles and then realizing as you just said the history is so broad, i mean going over centuries that you can't actually do it. >> i think the most prominent artist i ever went to a stood
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was lucien freud. one part of the studio was light and another part was totally dark and there he did different things. it was fascinating to see this place where so much creation keep out of. >> rose: you looked at photography and he's looking at paintings. is that the essential divide. >> absolutely. we worked together, we talked about the show actually first when we still both marketed at moma. it never got done there but in the end, john asked me if i wanted to do a companion show of photographs. which is a totally other kind of question because the default thing for painting is they're made in the studio. the default condition for photographers is they come back in the world and you go back to process them in the dark room. >> rose: it was david -- >> it was david. >> rose: here's a conversation i did with jeff coons talking about his studio.
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roll tape. >> i work with hundreds of people. i'm not just working alone in a room, i have 130 people at my studio. there's another a hundred some people that work at the foundry in german, and other companies i work with. i'm really affecting lives of a lot of people. and we are involved with art much everybody's gettingcj a better understanding of art. and you know we're creating these things. i first started to work with people that went to a foundry. and the cast something and i realize i don't have a foundry, i don't have the facilities to cast it myself so you learn how to work with people and trust working with people. >> rose: you are doing this at the gagosian. i expected you to do it at moma. >> i was going to do it at moma. but moma has this rule that senior people have to leave at
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65 and at that point i had three exhibitions on my plate. one was a show one was this i realized if i tried to do all of them i would still be at moma. so we agreed that i would do without this one. when gagosian, i would like to do a show at the gallery and i would like to do a show of the studios. he said great. >> rose: you say both of these ex exhibitions reached a threshold of contemporary art but do not cross it. >> because essentially because of the size it takes now installations. there is actually, it turned out by accident, this was last minute. the gallery was able to install great william -- video installation on the sixth floorer 980 madison which is one of the works that john and i both would have wanted to
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include in a contemporary section but it takes up a whole gallery just that one work. >> rose: where does the artist's studio stand in sort of the canons of]e painting. >> at the top and bottom. they're some of the most sublime greatest paintings by recommend brant and veneer and velazquez. in the bottom end particularly in the 91th century there's a massive very silly paintings of things like school boys hering at models and children painting and fantasies of the love life of the old masters. there are lots of these things because as the subject became popular, it was almost as if someone could say well i'd like to have a painting with a horse in it and somebody will provide it. >> rose: can you look at the he looks and say that there were moments that changed there were reflective moments in the
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evolution of an appreciation of the nature of the stood oh. >> sure. in photography it's a completely different story. >> rose: how so? >> well you have are there's the genre of the artist in the studio began in the end of the 19th century. there's some wonderful pictures in the photography exhibition that belonged to that genre. but it hadn't been tear me rewarding as the genre for the art of photography. so i took a different approach. >> rose: was there something you didn't include in this that you very much wanted to be part of this exhibition. >> i got very lucky. john was talking about loans too. i was the, we ended up borrowing a few pictures from a lot of different places. most of the leading american collections are represented in the show. >> rose: this is an obvious
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question and rather obvious. have thephotography as an art formgincreased rapidly. why is it always been. >> it's really from the 70's until now. >> rose: really. in terms of collections. >> in terms of elections. >> rose: people appreciating. >> in terms of the market. >> rose: both the collections and appreciation as art. even though you had remarkable artists before who were photographers. when you do this tell me how studios evolved in post war era. >> well this was one of the big changes in that you know at the beginning when all this started in the 16th century it was really artists models. there's not much interest in the environment at all. and then gradually it was more
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and more interest in showing what the whole space was like and all these different kinds of studio pictures evolved. by the end of the 19th century it faded out and there was some great fantasy studio pictures. but basically with modern art and the narrowing of pictorial space the whole idea of painting in a close spaces was less prominent. and eventually the period after the second world war in the united states, it really comes, after the whole thing had almost collapsed, there weren't really ambitious studio paintings. they come back but with paintings of the walls of studios. and with the materials that are in studios. and there's this great influence of the genre and it's fascinating that yoin one period,
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can almost fade out and can come back again. a land escape painting. >> rose: we'll take a look at that in a moment. i'm looking at photos here. the painings you did chronologically. >> well, the show begins with paintings which a group of things from picasso. and them it's used chronologically. >> rose: let's take a look at some of these. >> rather than have one example of several kinds of things i wanted like six examples and windows. and then to do it on that sort of basis. >> rose: we'll see some
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paintings first and then we'll look at some photography. >> this is from about 1890. a french artist. he was a painter and a sculpture and very meticulous paintings. and of course looking at it, you see that the realism of it is supposed to convince you that this is actually what this studio looked like with a little bit of reflection tells you that actually it's obviously staged. i mean that model could not hold that position for very long. >> rose: yes, exactly. >> so this is from the beginning of the 50's. and this looks to be a -- but actually it isn't. and hisø studio looked like that. these are call dolls which are used in mexican religious
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ceremonies as images of judah and set a fire the one on the left has a no spoking sign. this belongs to the ministry of finance in mexico and was a huge problem. it's never been shown in this country before. it's a six foot 12. it's an amazing thing. >> rose: how did you get it. >> just a lot of work. 60 e-mails. >> rose: next is pablo picasso. this is from 1968. he said i always forbade anybody to clean my studio. i always counted on the protection of dust. it's my ally. of. >> it was more colored but picasso edited it out with the
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white of the studio wall so that all of the representation, one can imagine an artist were making a painting it's not in a deep space. it's flattened out. and this is what becomes e normative later on in the first period. >> rose: next is jasper john in the studio 1982. >> really this is what happens eventually. this is the painting of the studio wall. and; is that right this is sort of the revolution. >> this is really what the in the exhibition is this sort of climax of the evolution lay?t in the images of his works on the wall. there's a plastic cast which is something one finds in much earlier paintings. and there's a painting within it leaning. >> rose: and the next? >> and then artist materials.
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this really -- >> rose: called attributes of the painter. >> this is the 18th century. he really invented this idea of making paintings of the materials the painting was in, the objects that the musician uses. this is something which sort of continues in the history of studio paintings of representing the materials. in this case you look at it and realize the painting was made with the palate and the colors you see in it. >> rose: this is called the pinkyz2í summer. >> in the 70's after having been an abstract painter moved back to figuration. a whole group of studio paperings and this is a big pink painting which is going to the
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dallas museum. and you canmaterials there. you can also see lunch at the back. >> rose: you have in fact said you, john, have said it is no surprise or exan race to say the studio became his obsession. >> no, it really, there could be 50 paintings. >> rose: one last one. this is from jim dime. two palates in black with stovepipe. 1963. >> this ispainting. again the materials, the palates are six feet tall and he's made a construction of two canvas each representing a palate. and the old cast-iron stove which was familiar in studios in the 19th century is referenced by this thing that jumps across
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the corner. it was made right in the beginning of the 1960's. >> rose: let's turn to some photography. the first minute we have is andre -- 1926. tell me about this. >> he made in paris in the 20's and 30's a whole body of work where he managed to treat other artist studios as sort of a playground for his imagination. it's sort of the os steer period but he's turned his back on the studio and is looking out into the staircase. very inventive picture. >> rose: photographers would do that. the next one is constantine. >> who was one of the great artists of the 20th century. a great sculpture and also a great photographer. here in some his marvelous pictures where he arranged his sculptures and make photographs of them, here he brings them alive almost like cartoon
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characters where the wooden figure on the right as if he's leading the animal off on to an add -- adventures in the column that background. >> rose: this is my favorite. >> this is when he was still a prisoner of war. the war was still alive and he had gotten a commission to photograph artists that eventually never got published)"l46(kdand photographed these. >> rose: here is richard. >> marvelous picture. perfect for this. >> rose: why is it perfect. >> because the great model susie parker whether on her own or at the suggestion of avadon we don't know, has taken the black cloth that's supposed to be the background and made the part of
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her costume. in the same speared avadon moved his camera back to include the studio as part of the picture. the way the set up is supposed to work is that the black background is to isolate the figure in space. >> rose: the next one is wegie. >> this is about the studio as a place for posing. and here he has definitely captured the period of betty paige displaying herself to the photographers. >> rose: today, 2015 how much painting of studio. is it just simply art on the wall and how much photography of studios. >> as we were saying the whole world ha changed. some people say it's the era of post studio. a lot of art is not made in the
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studio at all, it's made out in the world. and so you have an awful lot of different things happening at the same time. >> rose: you talk about three themes emerging here through the collection. one frozen persona four studios and embarrassment of images. >>d the last one is the that last section is the one where the -- studio is and it actually is one of the areas where the two, where there's a commonality between the two exhibitions. >> it's interesting that one of the artists which links the two exhibitions and in line is a wonderful thing which is effectively like part of a studio paul. >> rose: you may have been talking about contemporary art when you said this john, but you said the past is challenged by
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truly original art. >> i think it is true. and that part of the art is to take on the art of the past and but in the end, there's the great monumental which you're never going to be surpassed which on the other hand they really are the things which people have to work against. and learn from. but they will never succeed if they simply try and repeat. so this is why art continues to change. >> rose: are we now looking at the discovery of a man who was a great curator at moma, retires at 65 and has discovered a new life that he can curate you know as long as he wants to because of the presence of
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certain you know, significant operators or institutions. >> also working on an exhibition of po$prebopen in perfectly conventional museums. >> rose: but not, can can you tell us when that will open. >> in the autumn of 17 at the museum door say. and at the gallery in london and going to the national gallery in washington. >> rose: in 2017. >> 2017 yes. my hope is that it's possible to have one on each side of the table. >> rose: it's great to see you. thank you for coming. >> thank you charlie. >> rose: thank you peter. >> a pleasure, thank. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. for me about this program and early episodes visit us on-line at and
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