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tv   Taiwan Outlook  PBS  August 20, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT

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>> hello, and welcome. coming up, it is london calling. the nine hour detention in the transit zone of heathrow airport. a journalist working with edward snowden, the u.s. intelligence whistleblower suddenly throws a lot of attention on the uk's state in the prison worldwide cyber sweeping revelations.
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is david miranda complicit to treason? or is this a case of shooting the messenger? the courier of documents that civil libertarians believe should be uncovered are coming up in the debate. we also have our media buzz segment. let's say hello once again. >> the headlines. detained in the wake of the violence, killing hundreds. pakistan's former military ruler charged in the death of 2007. they submerged with some of the heaviest rains on record. we start in egypt. the crackdown on the muslim brotherhood, the state media reporting he will be detained
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for 15 days, charged with incitement to murder inclination to protests. 900 people, they are dead since security forces stormed the protest camps last week. claire williams has more. >> the army's crackdown continues all the way to the top. this footage shows the supreme leader under arrest. egyptian security forces captured him and two of his deputies on tuesday morning here in cairo. nearby, they bear what little remains of the sid in. the army has been using force to clear out citizens that were angry over the ousted president morsi.
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the arrest was met with anger and defiance from the muslim brotherhood's political weighing, the freedom and justice party. >> the incarceration and the supreme guide of the muslim brotherhood is a huge thing for us. we are in pain, but the brotherhood operates as a coalition on all levels of society and this will not affect our right to protest whatsoever. >> the brother put appointed abraham to replace him. >> in court denying charges in connection with the 2007 killing of the opposition leader.
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>> the former president and army chief left court today amid high security. in died for murder, conspiracy to commit murder, and facilitation of murder. the 70 ---year-old pleaded not guilty, his lawyer saying there is not enough evidence to convict him. >> you will have to prove the allegations with evidence, and there is still no evidence on record. >> he died in an attack six years ago when he was president. he step down from office a year later and went into self-imposed exile. he returned in march of this year hoping to stand in parliamentary elections.
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he was arrested and banned for life from running for office. this is the first time a pakistani chief has been charged with a crime. >> more world news in brief right now, the united kingdom defending its actions over the controversy of detaining the partner of a journalist. meanwhile, the paper says it is supporting him. meanwhile in the united states, and military judge deliberating for private bradley manning for leaking classified evidence to wiki leaks. and the lower house of parliament has voted to dissolve itself paving the way for an
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election in october. it will end months of physical turmoil that began with the collapse of the center-right government. radioactive water has been leaking from the tank, the worst incident since the crisis sparked by a 2011 earthquake and soon army. -- tsunami. >> more than two years since the disaster and the plant is still crippled by technical difficulties. the cooling systems were knocked out by the 2011 soon on me. to keep the reactors cool, tons of water is pumped into them. the radioactive water is stored in these immense tanks. they are not all watertight.
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the tokyo electric power company says the water is imaging radiation every hour. >> it is a 5 -- year dose of radiation in one hour. -- a five year dose of radiation in one hour. >> is the first time that japan issued such a rating. but still, radioactive levels are so high that it is dangerous for workers to approach. it comes days after they admitted 300 tons of contaminated water is leaking everyday day and reaching the pacific ocean. >> monsoon rains in the tropical
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storm have been battering the capital manila. tens of thousands of others driven from their homes. >> waist deep in water, monsoon rains and a tropical storm left more than half of manila submerged underwater turning roads into rivers and leaving some only reachable by boat. the heaviest rains on record have affected half a million people in the philippines. more than 200 evacuations shelters have opened. but some are still waiting for help. >> we are a flayed the floodwater might keep rising while we are waiting for the rescue boats to help us. >> offices and the schools were
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closed. international flights were closed as passengers and crew were delayed. every year, the philippines is subjected to typhoons and storms. poor urban planning has compounded the problem in the capital. >> tickets for the 2014 world cup have gone on sale. in brazil, slightly overshadowed by a series of questions of how prepared the nation actually is. >> the fee for team are here this week. they are going to look at what has been built, to check on progress. they warned us that only one of
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those is going to plan at the moment, he is key for people to get the stadium ready for the deadline at the end of the year. the police and security services are kicking into action, looking back at events to see what lessons can be learned from them. the pope's visit was seen as a massive success. on the whole, the crowds were kept happy and safe. bigger concern for the government was whether the protests that we had earlier in the year, a lot of violence that is very unusual in brazil. the government keen to get through a series of measures to calm people down. they want to make sure that action stays on pitch.
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>> the palestinian in the west bank city came forward the claim is prize after discovering a bug on facebook. he quickly found himself rebuffed. >> facebook pays a white hat fee of 300 and 75 euros to people spotting glitches. a facebook official ignored his report of a privacy setting but not once, but twice. >> i told him that i can prove to you that this is a problem. i started posting to the timeline. >> they did not pay up. they could've sold the information information on the black market for thousands and instead is reviewing job lovers
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from around the world. >> i discovered an exploit in the facebook software, discovered from all around the world. >> bag news for mark zuckerberg. >> time to hand you over. >> a cautionary tale in there somewhere but i'm not quite sure what it is. it is time to perfectly justify the suspension of david maranda, said to be acting as courier for the u.s. intelligence whistleblower.
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a documentary filmmaker was working out of germany. complicit in treason or a case of shoot the messenger? it draws sudden attention to the uk's stake in the standoff with u.s. authorities and a broader argument of the way authorities are abusing anti-terror laws to cyber snoop on anyone who owns a cell phone around the world. with us is the labour member of parliament. welcome back. we welcome joshua faust from america. the french chapter of amnesty international, he writes for french news and a contributor to the tech 24 show here.
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and the observatory of the black golf and mediterranean seas. you can join the conversation on facebook and on twitter where the #f2 for debate -- #f24debate. >> he spent nine hours being questioned, treated as a terror suspect. he was carrying material for his guardian journalist partner that first published information. it was under a provision of the terrorism act. >> they took my computer, game
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console, cell phone, everything. >> his lawyers have written to the british authorities. >> he doesn't want it back or copied. and if the british state in whatever form, we're not quite sure that they want to get that material but i think they have to do it through a more satisfactory procedure. the terrorism law watchdog is reviewing the case that he describes at rejigged is extremely unusual. >> it is a fairly narrow power, and it can have incidental benefits and bring useful intelligence into the hands of the police but it is only
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supposed to be used for that one purpose. >> the guardian also was forced to destroy a copy of the files after being threatened with legal action if it did not and the information over. >> jeremy, this reaction from prime minister cameron's office saying it had been kept abreast of the operation but was not involved in the decision. what are your thoughts on that? >> clearly to detain someone for nine hours, it must've come from somewhere on high. either from u.s. intelligence or somewhere else. or maybe they were looking for him when he came through heathrow.
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it was stopped in transit, anyone traveling would have thought. >> orders from the u.s.? >> they either instructed the security service to question david or the u.s. which has access to the travel data on just about every airline may well have contacted the british and said we want you to stop him, see what he has on him, and possibly take that information from him. i think we need to be told exactly what the chain of command is that made this decision. if david cameron was told straight away that mr. maranda had been stopped, he should have intervened and said why, on what powers, and who asked us to do it?
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>> the white house has said that they did not give any orders or make any request. is that credible? >> it is certainly possible. they were informed they would be making this detention but the higher authorities had no role to play. it is fair about how close the collaboration between american and british intelligence actually goes. there is no evidence, nothing actually linking the white house or higher authorities. as long as we keep it labeled as speculation, it is fine to talk about and wonder, but there is no data. >> was the nine hours justify?
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>> we are speculating here. his travel was paid for by the guardian. is he involved in his work which we know has been linked to mr. snowden. how the u.s. and the uk and europe have come together on certain issues of terrorism, we are going back to the same issue. a national security issue. was nine hours too much? maybe we should bring it down to six hours. confiscating material and not charging. we are going to the fine line between democracy and national security.
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>> i think we must be upfront about this. we are speaking of the uk terrorism act of 2000. i think that the person the present as far as they are concerned from the uk government or any other government. clearly some tactics of harassment. and this law, this act is vacant. at this point, at the very beginning, it is a bad law and it has been badly used for petty revenge.
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so let me be very clear about what is happening now. i think it is not a good thing for the uk's reputation. they say freedom of expression, human rights is very important. i don't think it will help their reputation and credibility at the end of the day. >> damien green believes that police had every right to find out what he was carrying. >> they are acting as they do under the law. the law is there to protect us from anything that will increase the danger of terrorism. we have an independent
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investigator talking to the metropolitan police at the end of the day. >> he is talking to that independent investigator. he says there are checks and balances. >> let's unravel this thing. it edward snowden is in russia. they are traveling to the home of a documentary filmmaker in brazil, transit through heathrow, not attempting to enter the uk and is miraculously detained under britain's security laws for the maximum time of nine hours. many people expressed concern, not the least are his employers at the guardian.
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i think we need to know who ordered this to go on. it was not a random check or a stopping of one person traveling through transit. they were looking out for him and were tipped off by somebody that he might know something. it looks like systematic harassment of anybody seen either trying to investigate the case or declare their support for snowden with what i think is a very brave thing that he did. >> whether or not it is a brave thing that he did, we will pick up on that point in a moment. this case is no ordinary case. people don't really follow this closely and lump this together with wikileaks and everything.
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>> let's be clear, everyone is against terrorism. speaking about the digital aspect of it, the laptop, his phone, his hard drive. it shows the security forces do not really understand the digital age where we live now. it is the same feeling when we experience what we know happened. they just described it because this will not teach people to write in a secure way. lots of new software, and we have the feeling today that what people want.
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>> you mentioned he calls it one of the strangest moment in history of the paper. >> we had to destroy it. they destroyed one copy. >> he calls that a pointless piece of symbolism from officials that understood nothing about the digital age. do you get the sense on both sides of the atlantic that perhaps they are overwhelmed by what is going on?
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>> it is important to note that both sides are very fond of overstating or omitting key details of what is happening. he destroyed those hard drives to avoid messy and potentially drawnout lawsuits of the british government as they sued to get those documents back, to get the hard drive back. i was not in the initial version of the story. just like when he was initially detained at the airport, the events as reported by the guardian did not mention the fact that they were funding airport travel and he was serving as a document mule, transporting these files back and forth to the reporters. a lot of these details have come off. it is difficult to keep up with it. the government has not been upfront about why he was held for nine hours if all they
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wanted to do was get his hard drive. there is no need to hold him for nine hours. they really wanted to be addressing this, they would not be going after journalist. they would not be pursuing the president of bolivia. they would be quietly working with the russians to arrange an exchange. both sides are highly emotional and overreacting left and right. it is making it incredibly difficult to figure out the reality. >> on twitter he said that david was working as a document rule -- mule. this brings us back that he thinks what edward snowden did was a very brave thing. do you agree? >> i do not and i don't think americans do.
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releasing documents that were top-secret, it comes down to national security. it is also eu national security. we see a lot of fighting going on, terrorists, jihadist. this is just sort of a diversion or harassment. this is not the main thing. you're going to see egypt overflow. we heard about him trying to move from the fighting areas. this is a minor incident.
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what the message is sending is that they had documents, he transformed documents and is wanted for espionage. clearly, he is being harassed. there is still this issue out there. the law has not kept up with our way of doing business and our way of communicating. >> you were pointing out the diversion as the point.
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>> welcome back or welcome if you are just joining us. a sample will be followed for you at the top of the hour. the white house criticizing the detention of egypt's muslim brotherhood leader who is being held for 15 days for "inciting
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to murder." the former military ruler charged over the killing of a politician, tons of radioactive water in japan and fukushima. we also have a look at how ticket sales are going for the world cup now that they are underway. also, the venues are on track to be ready. those stories and much more for you at the top of the hour. if you are just joining us, this is the debate. we are looking at how the edward snowden affair, the national intelligence whistleblower has suddenly taken a british twist with the detention for nine hours on sunday.
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they have been writing up the story. this was in transit as he was making his way back to brazil. the labor mp joining us from washington, journalist and columnist here in the studio. we are pleased to welcome back the french chapter of amnesty international. they are security analyst for all of eastern europe? >> the mediterranean black sea. we were discussing at the end of part one, the issue of how much
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the motivations were behind the british decision, and it was made at the beginning, wondering aloud over whether or not the uk was doing this on its own or in collusion or under the instructin of the united states. the guardian published another story that shows british intelligence got 100 million pounds of payments for intelligence gathered over three years. it found that 60% of the uk's high-value intelligence is based on an essay and product or derived from an essay collection. the official reports are distillations of this raw intelligence. and if you at that story to the nine hours of custody, many are recalling images of the start of your rack war.
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tony blair was george bush's poodle. the nickname haunted him throughout the rest of the tenure in office. the cartoon in the financial times today puts it, easy the man asking in london -- the man in washington wants to know what we have to say to our man in london, basically. that is how the story has been playing out. jeremy, reacting to that other story, they reacted by saying that there is a close intelligence relationship between the uk and the u.s. and a number of other countries including australia and canada's mapping and nor is everything shared.
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>> all we know is that there is a very close relationship, a sharing of databases, a great deal of information. an incredible ease by which the u.s. can extract anyone and put them on trial. it is hard to keep things happening. we see this extension of the u.s. paranoia of that security. i think this is just another example of that great paranoia. this is, frankly, harassment and the partner of the journalists that happened to be traveling through heathrow airport. this was a very big personal decision. the general approach to politics and life in the past, he decided
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enough was enough and did not prepared to go further because he could see the u.s. intelligence service was actually doing and it was carrying out against people in theusa and all over the world. i think this is a lesson for all of us that we want to be able to be there. it is what the u.s. and the west used to complain about over the soviet union. >> do you agree? >> i think quite the opposite. in contrast to what he was saying, they have their own decisions. a child could read the stories the guardian has posted and the statements that he has made to the press that he has sent documents to his partner, or that they misuse companions, having other people carry electronic through security and
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peace that together and wonder if somebody was involved and wanting to flag them for removal. it doesn't take a lot of effort to figure this out. anyone reading the press can find that out. the question about whether or not edward snowden is a whistle lower is immaterial to the miranda decision. if you are involved in trafficking documents across national borders, agencies are going to treat that seriously regardless of the contents of the message. governments take secrecy seriously. attending that they don't or that they shouldn't is to under -- misunderstand why there is a national security apparatus. and why their government continue to support it, their elected governments. as for the allegation that nsa surveillance is bigger than anything in the soviet union, so is the internet which did not exist or most of
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the soviet union. it was a little bit of intrigue considering how much the communication standards have changed. the fact that we are talking about this they say that is utter nonsense. they crackdown in prison and psychologically drug their descendents. it is any kind of rational debate. >> you might ask what is happening in guantánamo bay. that has gone on ever since. you might also ask yourself the question that if britain was so keen on detaining them for the maximum period, why didn't
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germany do something about it? to end any public discussion about this degree of surveillance. >> i want to bring up one point, as the romans would put it, the law is harsh but it is the law. in this case, it would be the law. breaking the law is ok? these programs constitute
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massive sweeping systematic invasions and the right to privacy. the active public interests, it is great personal risk. they seem more interested in persecuting mr. snowden when addressing the fundamental issues. the fact that these programs are at least partly unlawful in terms of international human rights laws. , u.s. constitutions. they are not very happy with this because they tried to hide these programs into the rights of privacy.
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and it is easier for them to try to hide him then too disturbed and harass other people. going to the fundamentals of this issue, it is very weak. there were some advances about them. but it was very weak and very timid, and we urge the u.s. government and other governments to address the human rights issues rather than playing politics with this. >> reacting with a touch of fury and you could say even menace to all this. >> i will be far more aggressive in my reporting from now on.
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i will publish many more documents and i will publish things on the united kingdom, two. i have documents on the united kingdom spying system and they will regret what they have done. >> hell hath no fury. what will be the upshot of that? >> we have seen many surprises in the last few weeks. we speak about two sides, basically the recent u.s. and uk government. there is another portion of people that are basically citizens, and they are surprised about what they will learn from surveillance. i was surprised. >> even though you cover these issues? >> i was surprised about the massive state of surveillance and that means they put on this.
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i would say it is not as good when the citizen thinks the law is good -- the law is good when the citizen thinks the law is good. there have been some famous and accurate ones in the past. alan turing, you know, the british government during the civil war. fighting against germany, it was accepted by anyone that was a good surveillance job. the government should explain what they are doing to the citizens. >> these revelations of how much of the information is being looked at in terms of what is inside our cell phones, they requested and obtained the personal cell records over six months from deutsche telekom. this graph can point it on the
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website and locate his every movement, every single day for those six months as well. as well the calls he made that people did not know about the story before he made his revelations. >> we have heard this before. i'm sorry. it was the at&t building in san francisco. >> even though he follows this on a daily basis, he is surprised but you are not? 's technology has taken us there. i walk around with my cell phone in my purse and all of this is going to be recorded, and we know that. >> i know i use mine for sure. other countries, europe for example, they ask for more information.
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>> they also said to build their own intelligence network that was subject to a paper in 1998. >> i don't speak for them but i would be surprised because they asked for a meeting a few days ago, and they fight for terrorism. but they just want to be more aware of what is going on. >> have you been surprised by some of the revelations >> do you look at your cell phone differently? >> i knew that my cell phone and e-mail are fundamentally insecure. this is part of what comes at the maturation process. and it is not new. we knew that the nsa was already monitoring 80% of internet traffic and every single telephone communication in and out of europe.
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i think the extent and the use to which it is being used matters, but the moment they were mandated to carry gps transceivers, it was obvious they were transmitting our position. >> they are even transmitting when the telephone is off. >> and you can find that language in the specification sheets. i think it is valuable that people know about the fundamental insecurity built into their lives. like you should not put something on facebook if you don't want the world to see it is true. in that sense, it is good. but the public interest ramifications extend beyond the insecurity built into the electronic devices. there was no public interest needed to expose espionage to russian agents. there was no public interest to expose espionage from the chinese government. there is no need to make them public.
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so while we are keeping in mind the fact that this one conversation has been catalyzed, so many other legitimate operations have also been exposed by these documents, they are important and they speak to why both governments in the uk and the u.s. are treating these leaks seriously the cousin it is not just a civil liberties discussion. it is something that they cannot ignore. >> the system is that aspect of it that shocked many people. >> it should not be exposed the way it got exposed. >> you talked about facebook. they were just saying they did not know the extent of that surveillance. they asked for more information.
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they met with barack obama as well as larry page. >> we all voluntarily go on facebook and expose ourselves. >> mark zuckerberg has famously disregarded every privacy concern whenever he resets their privacy settings to public to get more marketing dollars. his concern is cute but not terribly credible. >> complaining that barack obama has paid only lip service so far, he says, to reforming the way that we look at all of those -- >> millions and billions of phone calls. >> the u.s. president went beyond his ongoing call to bring edwards noted to justice and promised to review other intelligence gathering. >> we can and must be more transparent. i direct the intelligence community to make public as much information about these programs
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as possible. we have declassified unprecedented information about the nsa, but we can go further. we will make public the legal rationale under section 215 of the patriot act. the nsa is taking steps to put in place a full-time civil liberties and privacy officer. and released information that details authorities and oversight. >> why does this fall short for you? >> it means that if the government wants to undermine it, there must be a way to justify these violations. to show it is necessary to protect other rights. and there must be a way. when we are speaking about
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massive and sweeping programs, such as the nsa programs we are discussing, there is difficulty in the meaning. clearly, the u.s. government violated its own constitution and international human rights laws. and the reaction of the president is not enough. we call on him to go further down this road. there were interesting announcements but it is not enough. it would be very important for the details of the decision. >> a little sidebar on this. >what is the procedure in franc? the french were also doing cyber
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snooping abroad. what is the procedure here? is it the same? >> i don't think it is exactly the same. >> are there more safeguards or less? >> thanks to mr. snowden, we have a great wealth of details about what happened and what happens in the u.s. about these programs. and there is a lot about the many other programs that continued threats to human rights. some human rights ngos are taking this issue, i think it is a league for human rights.
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as far as we are concerned, it is under the strength of these revelations. i don't think on the basis of information we have today, it is important to express it. we have the same massive state apparatus in terms of human rights violations. >> i agree that i would not be that optimistic because they have systems abroad in very large ways. >> exactly. there are debates today about considering this weapon. again, i would agree with you about the digital age. we should consider this very seriously. >> how much of this happens in
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partnership with the private sector? another aspect has revealed that he himself was not a government employee. i want to thank you and i want to thank francis. i want to thank jeremy for joining us from london. before we go, i want to say hello to james who has our media buzz segment for us this tuesday. james, you were hot on this story yesterday. >> we are looking at the same from this as well. he has placed the spotlight -- >> the editor of the guardian? >> exactly. in any case, he says it is a real threat to in the uk -- two
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journalists in the uk. in the u.s., you have first amendment protections written in the constitution, the british security apparatus is behaving like dinosaurs because the material the guardian had to destroy, it can be published elsewhere. they were targeted and threatened and pressured with basically government heavies. they say the guardian is going to far with this. they have about five or six or seven articles you have to really search for information on the story and both opinion pieces say that the guardian is going to far. do they think they are above the law? they are taking very diffrent
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approaches over at the telegraph. >> you sound slightly surprised. >> i like this cartoon i found on social media about this story. essentially, the notion of liberty in the u.s. threatened by him, you can see a devils tail peeking out under neath lady liberty. >> the francis first cabinet meeting has brought us a little trove. he said at the cabinet meeting today, basically, immigration policy and a socialist government perhaps looking at reforming with the residency rights. not at all happy that it leaked out. that is what he said.
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>> it is amazing that this kind of thing is leaked within the privacy of the cabinet meeting. when in fact the meeting itself was wonderful. >> nice to see an old-style leak. >> a lot of people unhappy with that. the #imposter has been trending on social media. they might be in favor with the whole policy where family members are allowed to join people with residency. he is trying to play a double game. he was said that he could win in the second round of presidential elections. he is probably appealing to the right wing as well. >> french politics is back, almost the end of the summer almost. i want to thank the panel and
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thank you for joining us here.
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