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tv   Ken Starr Religious Liberty in Crisis  CSPAN  July 11, 2021 2:00pm-3:01pm EDT

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while making arrangements for president obama to visit columbia. we talked with her about her in-depth look in her new book subtitled the rise and fall of the secret service. >> carolyn nick on this episode of footnote plus, listen as he or wherever you get your podcast. >> you are watching the tv for complete television schedule visit book you can also follow along behind-the-scenes on social media at book tv on twitter, instagram and facebook. >> tonight we are honored to listen in on two career long champions of liberty. as they ponder the state of religious freedom domestically and globally. tom for but serves as president
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of the freedom of religious institute, a nonprofit that works to advance religious freedom for everyone. a source of individual human dignity and as a source of political stability. ..
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several advisory councils including the human rights program at catholic university. in the international division of defending freedom many published works include world
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of faith by international liberty is vital to american national security, published by oxford university press in 2008. it is a book that is shaped and continues to shape u.s./religious freedom legislation and foreign policy. judge ken starr has had a distinguished career in academia, the law and public service. he currently serves of counsel to the linear law firm. having served as president and chancellor of baylor university and dean at the pepperdine school of law, judge starr continues to teach law, writes articles of interest and serves regularly as a commentator for various television and radio programs. he serves on the boards of international in the christian
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legal society. and on the advisory board of the client defending freedom. as a constitutional expert and master lawyer, ken has served comic ken has argued 36 cases before the u.s. supreme court. as u.s. solicitor general. he served as a district judge for the columbia circuit and counselor chief of staff to u.s. attorney general william french smith and his law clerk to both chief justice warren burger and the fifth circuit judge. as most of you know, he was appointed to serve as independent counsel for five investigations including white water from 1994 many of you know ken through his writing. his author first among equals,
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the supreme court in american life, bear country, the baylor story, contempt memoir of the clinton investigation was a near times bestseller in 2018. and religious liberty in crisis, which was released this past tuesday and which we celebrate this evening. ken and his wife alice, who was here this evening, great to have you here alice. now reside along the peaceful banks in waco, texas. we're going to hear from two devoted joints of faith and freedom strengthen our resolve. to defend americans first freedom. please join me in welcoming doctor tom pharr and doctor
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ken starr. >> thank you david. see this is all i again here this is on. i can't play what an honor it is to talk about this book i work at the religious freedom institute and who could be for religious freedom and not want to read a book religious freedom in crisis, certain agreed the title. we are going to get into what that means tonight. and i would like tool uncommon as much is like to to hear myself speak i would much rather listen to ken starr. i want to set it up by saying why this book should be read by everyone. and lead into some basic
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principles i see behind the book want to talk about these principles that are undergirding religious freedom with the crisis is and others who are watching and seconded by me too do. to have this wonderful precious right of freedom for it let me begin by giving you two reasons i think you should read this book. it is eminently entertaining. nope and is the time you heard of anyone say that of a book about constitutional cases.
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she wrote a terrific review which i will give you if she hasn't seen it, she makes a number of good points. she said this is not a book that is a litany of italicized cases. those of you who are scholars and people who dive deeply this is not what it is. since the 1940s rosa kidded brief aside some how uncomprehending kid. i remember these big billboards i didn't know who
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or worn was and i did not know what impeachment i thought he was a bad man who'd done wicked things. and indeed it turns out a lot of people thought that. it's eminently readable by a man who's been there. he has been the lion's den of the devil to my second point that is on an apt description of the way he looks at it. but before all of the justices of whom he writes he argued 36 cases i believe before the courts. because he read about them he was there he argued many of them. he disagreed with him unless the cases.
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before i read religious freedom in crisis can recall i have not been a fan of the supreme court's role what i have learned from this book this goes to the first question i want to ask you, can you can say by what you want by way of introduction we can get into this. the lemon case you are not a fan. suffice to say lemon in your book could be made sweeter by what is the other sweetening agent coming stop me and i've
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not even started. lol. it's for super scrutiny was, what cases that? [laughter] if you wanted to make a joke and really screw it up. [inaudible] what is the interrogation begin? >> even if you know it will be an inside joke. i keep thinking honey, honey. i like honey. that represents the way the first amendment was written. you exercise a quality we call it. i think it undermined that prayer that's why think lemon should be sweetened.
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these three great principles were and have been sustained the ones with we agree even more. my point is this guy has been in front of them and that great american way of debate. the higher laws can cause at the constitution of the united states. this is a love story for religious freedom. sisters everything i have read beginning with the country it's a love story for baylor. the clinton it's a love story the clinton book is a love story for the constitution.
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finally to the first question, the three great principles beginning with autonomy. going next to the quality you take this in a sequence you want. and then to accommodation for those are three english words we all know what they mean. with certain constitutional principles and prints of these three great principles using some of the cases that you used to explain what they mean including the ones that you lost or lingo. there weren't that many. there is some that you were involved and even they not argue before the court. you want to hear some of that question rick you never ask a follow-up question.
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i feel as if president of the creation. alice, to do is stand up and take about? she is working hard. they are pub date. it's an extraordinary effort working for the publisher. we knew was going to be if not the high watermark. this beautiful and magnificent facility. may they all soon without
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masks fully vaccinated and i return as worn jean harding we want to say to normalcy. i would also say by way of introduction i been moved to write this book for 40 years. but the pandemic it was time to write this. because of the need for transmission bird we need to transmit the culture of freedom and the hope of freedom to the rising generosity and at times those of us who have been around a life's journey track a few times. but also vehicle for
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transmission. it's a great distress to every friend of freedom this has folks who are dedicated something jump in, autonomy. one of my favorite cases and we have a deep connection here with the leadership, has to do with a school eight lutheran school called hosanna. his and mount tabor. hosanna was a lutheran school, got into a squabble with one of the lay teachers. she had been called taught secular subjects at this christian school in the midwest. and she suffered from a disease called narcolepsy.
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i see a number of your suffering symptoms right now please. she would fall asleep at inopportune times. sometimes judges have that problem. never one up this man. it's a really disabling feature so voluntarily ready to come back they said no hiring a substitute teacher. they get into a dispute. she threatened to file suit so that is a firing offense looks and she was fired. the eoc takes it all the way
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up to the supreme court of the united states. a number of you in this audience know this case pretty well. the supreme court of the united states told the violates the establishment clause in the free exercise clause. a double whammy. we as a beautiful word for lawyers to think about the supreme court's, unanimous. ruth bader ginsburg joined that opinion. sonja joined that opinion by chief justice roberts. justice alito authored a mighty concurring opinion teasing out this principle of autonomy even more so in a broader sense, broader way than the chief justice opinion did but his opinion was joined
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by nine to nothing my dear friends. why? return but almost the membership not the entire membership. the supreme court unanimously in favor in the face of a serious potential violation of civil rights. it's the concurring opinion. the alito concurring opinion ripened and now as of this last summer, the atomic principal was into companion catholic school cases i thought we would win the forces of liberty would win. i thought it was a very hard case because the los angeles diocese did not require the lay teachers to be catholic.
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and yet there are certain religious duties that each teacher had. that was sufficient to carry the day seven -- two majority. that is autonomy. the ability of churches and church schools on church ministries to say as i put it, hands off caesar. leaving of the federal government have a very powerful interest as it does in the civil rights laws no you cannot go here. thou shalt not enter. the enormous victory. it's hard to believe the reagan administration was 40 years ago. the generations come the
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generations go. the chief of staff a different institution was sent hither and yon. was very familiar with the case was known as widmark versus vince lee. a group of students at umkc extracurricular group. you are a religious group. the chess club, you are
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discriminating against us. establishment clause requires us to build the jeffersonian high and impregnable. go somewhere else we love you but go somewhere else. the supreme court of the united states was really at the state of meditation. how powerful is the idea when the speech is religious speech and question. what is going on as a form of speech protected by the freedom of speech there is a double whammy even a triple whammy is the pre-exercise of religion. it's easier for us as a freedom of speech case and
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using stepped up analysis called strict scrutiny. don't worry it's easy to master, high schoolers. i'm saying this is a book for homeschool kids as well as their grandparents. no solidly rooted in the constitution without should not discriminate against religious voice. a few years later congress had to step in and pass the equal act of 1964 the equal access act. why during the reagan administration was supported by mcburney the christian legal society, as a predecessor sam erickson a great, great man was among with other leaders. some perhaps your parents were involved in that effort. to get legislative relief they
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receive federal assistance, then it will do exactly umkc. if you allow other extra curricular clubs to meet you cannot discriminate against you became a several rights. the omaha school district of omaha nebraska, a suburban welty school district councilman set equal access act is unconstitutional to violation of the establishment clause. really quality principal went eight -- room with john paul stevens i don't think congress intended to intrude so deeply
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into federalism and values the power of scoreboards to make their own decisions and so forth. >> there you are making excuses for the bad guys. they do keep me honest. that was a great, great powerful tool. and by the way it's what i want the book tv. i wanted to be a tool so that when your church is threatened with closure or some other intrusion bites caesar into the religious atomic may or kids are treated in a discriminatory fashion they have the tools to say no. and then, i will be very brief on accommodation. >> that's okay were doing good.
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>> the great iconic liberal from the worn court, use these words to describe our culture : we are religious people whose institutions presuppose a supreme being. that is worth repeating we are religious people whose institutions presuppose basic premed being. said that in the context of a program in new york, and new york city specifically that's called release time. that school children and public schools in the city of new york could be released on a wednesday afternoon, an hour early. and go to their local church and synagogue, their house of worship for religious training. the challenge the violation of the establishment clause. when douglas and ride the majority opinion use that word, accommodate. you can accommodate the religious views and the culture of our people by
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allowing this adjustment, this accommodation. think of accommodation, i think we can combat you here in a restaurant. or yes, we have available accommodations. this is the constitutional was used time and time again. think of in god we trust. the knighted states center was a wonderful man, inspiring man opens with prayer. the religious culture and needs of our people. let's turn then, what is the
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crisis, the courts have that it's very convincing. indeed we created the ministerial exception the hosanna tabor case of a ptolemy. the internal order may presume that. but it is not there. very important as you say it's almost foundational. u.s. court in the world the obama administration thought it was doing. an argument against this but there are some technical answers having to do with the americans with disabilities act is so forth.
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talk about the crisis, perhaps beginning choose a couple of cases, maybe smith and the coyote case which i think yet you eviscerate that meaning it's a limp once you are finished with it. talk about the courts contribution to the problem and then let's move to the broader issue. opinion office by justice burger set a tripartite test for determining whether an act
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of the government legislation passed was unconstitutional. in this three-part test, very briefly stated what is the primary purpose for that legislation or executive branch action? what is the primary effect, that is test number two. number three, does the action of the law entangle the government excessively with religious institutions, with the church so to speak. it sounds perfectly reasonable restatement of principles that were already embedded in our law. but in the constitution but in the case law. the problem was there's no limit how the test which is a tool. it is a tool in the toolbox is being used he came into sharper focus in connection with the challenge to
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legislative. nebraska is a wonderful state but they sometimes give rise to very interesting religious liberty questions. and a member, the only state that has a single thing with two different bodies is hard. has a single legislature and had a chaplin goes all the hip to the supreme court. it's a violation of the establishment clause it's interpreted by leman b kurtzman what was the primary purpose of having a chapel what's up primary effect of having a chapel. what about this committee that is hiring, interviewing candidates for the chaplin, reviewing his or her work, excessive entanglement and so forth.
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justice burger upheld based upon another one of the great principles which is, it is vindicated by our history and our tradition. it's a clear violation of art settled doctrine. how does, what i think of lemmon b kurtzman that a lot must have a secular purpose. you did not quite stated that way. is that an overstatement? >> precisely. it can't be i think it is
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difficult to win a challenge to legislative chaplaincy's. the author literally ignored it, not one word. but now let's jump ahead to the 21st century. case comes bubbling up suburb of rochester city council institutes a practice is not practice at all. the town council says in my experience we have prayers to begin the legislative session were going to start doing that. the challenge away to second,
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this is not legislative plant prayer and legislatures in the congress of the united states but has no historical foundation whatsoever. every member of the court said chambers was rightly decided. seachange there were no more voices of justice brennan justice blackmun, he was gonna rejected. because justice kagan in writing the dissent to the opinion that upheld the town council said it was rightly decided. what was her concern? the concern was really favoritism. there was -- rather than equality reaching out to different faith communities.
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the different towns of greece and the environment. they were only christian ministers who were invited to pray. there is a factual squabble about that. those of you it is not taking that long to drive to maryland in their the corner the rotary. [laughter] is the bladensburg cross this and get rid of the crossbred one of the judges said tear off the arms. and then it becomes a washington obelisk. the united states court held seven -- two nope read the monument is a traditional christian symbol but it stands the power of history and tradition. we have these wonderful tools is wonderful great principles
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that are resulting in our winning cases. we continue to win them. you and the book with the coming of amy coney barrett which is certainly a hopeful sign for those who want to defend religious freedom. but if this is the case, and if it is the case clearly you have made the case that the supreme court historically over time, notwithstanding the blemishes and the missteps has upheld these basic building blocks that are necessary for religious freedom. what is the problem here? and i might say was struck by the way was a sentence about the danger to the constitutional necessity of public debate. you seem to be turning the focus on we the people so what is going on here? >> the cancel culture as well as hostility to religion i
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heard this on a call-in show during publication religion is simply a mask for bigotry. it is a mask for hatred it is a mask and you can continue, you know that narrative. very sincerely and deeply held. then of course you hear history tells us that religion has been a tool of oppression, et cetera. and so i think especially with the rising generation it is important for those of us of a different generation to transmit the values of our culture, of our constitutional culture unless i have by way of example a chapter that had originally been named american grace as reconciliation and redemption. but we all the faith community, your church, your synagogue your faith communities doing very important things helpful
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things world measures success in human flourishing. your book and your scholarship are so effective in that of other scholars some are in this room are powerful demonstrators at a religious is a healthier community. we now know from social science that missionaries and various other countries, if allowed to operate in freedom that those neighborhoods and communities will show higher outcomes in the way the world measures human flourishing, education, health and income. nelson mandel is a tribute to the missionaries of south africa, so powerful so eloquent. that i think has been overlooked, ignored. they are lovers not haters. is that fair enough to say?
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most religious people working in public life i think of rick warren and settle back church, working all the world for people, they are lovers they are not haters, they are not bigots they are not out there trying to harm people. talk a minute about the arm principle if you would. and a bit about this administration and some of the fears you expressed in the book. >> i am fearful about what seems to be happening. it's obviously early on so i am withholding judgment. but, let me jump right into the equality act because there it is, if you are in favor of equality. but quality without the safety device the exit ramp, the freedom of conscience becomes cruel and oppressive. if i may reach back to justice kalil's opinion, all that a
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law has to do is to apply according to justice kalil and a six member majority in 1990 is apply equally to the community, neutral on its face is not aimed at religion is not trying to inhibit religion it is not trying to favor religion, then that is it that's all that is required. if that's true there's no religious -based exemption there's no conscientious objector that has been the law of the land the sweetness of sherbet versus werner and the sweetness of wisconsin versus yoder and i described this in a very accessible way any person could read it and say i understand that. the old order amish of wisconsin want to take their culture alive so they want their kids not to have to go to public high school. we went them out. back in our communities upheld the religious -based exec exemption to a perfectly valid law compulsory education until
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the age of 16. no we are going to create an exception to that. what justice scalia did in that unfortunate opinion was to call the serious question to overrule and avoid running compensation benefits. but nonetheless limited them essentially to their facts. congress of the united states responded and once again the christian community faith community orthodox communities all rallied around the proposition that no religious or racial is part of our culture. it has been recognized as fundamental to free exercise or what more broadly robert jackson called in flag salute case in 1943 in world war ii
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the freedom of the mind. we went to protect individual freedom as a matter of individual dignity and a conscientious objection recognition is in a sample of a constitutional republic respecting the dignity of each person's view. overwhelmingly passed the equal access act in 1994. this time unanimous about a house of represent 97 -- three with united states senate with president clinton enthusiastically signing that into law in the rose garden ceremony in november of 1993. the signing statement was magnificent, i don't know if you read it. >> you can pull it up on youtube you can see it is just extraordinarily robustly pro- religious freedom support. the equality act that is passed the house of representatives would abolish the civil rights act.
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so the equality act i just want to say equality without the tender mercies of providing conscientious becomes cruel and oppressive us with the pending equality act would in fact provide. no religious -based exemptions for public accommodations they have jack phillips the baker think of those wedding kinds of service providers, that is gone if the statute passes for its awareness that go? what about the grandmother he makes specialty cakes as a hobby out of her home but yet she has a license to do that. the equality act is passed with apply to mom and grandma in her individual kitchen. yes. not just businesses with 20 employees or 50 employees.
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it is so radically far-reaching but has passed the house. >> what about churches rent out our user church halls. do they become public accommodations? >> a lot of these, you got to litigate them and who knows great lawyers including some in this room will be think and creatively. my view is there is a high potential that churches, especially gerry haig is hear from florida, church camps they are gone for a don't they are gone but these regulations. >> that can be sued. they will be sued. the losses their business will go way up. >> it's one of the thing they are so many noble causes if you care about religious freedom it's important to support our lighthouses.
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so is the alliance defending freedom the buyers are breaking out there are a lot of fires breaking out across the country but is not just new york, california, read the book you will read all about birmingham alabama. as it jackson mississippi the fires are burning but they are firemen. their fire stations. so these friends of liberty are just so good. adf is 17 in a row on the supreme court. but end with your recommendations to these good people and those that are watching. what can ordinary americans due to defendant religious freedom? then we will a couple questions. >> i suggested two things already. one is transmission. i think we need to educate ourselves because of the collapse of >> education in the united states, the young people are not learning about
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a culture of freedom there probably learning in many schools as you all know different kinds of attitudes towards the united states. my responses excuse me? a people living out of the united states to venezuela and cuba and central america? that does not seem to be the case and may be missing something here if we are such a terribly oppressive regime. that is what is being perpetuated in schools. we have to do some home education there is one person is an alum of homeschooling. homeschooling's at the 10% before the pandemic was 5% onset to 5% increase in a parents and grandparents are saying we've got to do something, not just promote education but the values being taught and so forth. so transmission at the educator sells them at the educate the rising
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generation. and secondly support your local firehouse. that may be alliance of defending freedom i have my favorites. but there are so many in the catholic traditions and has been fantastic the thomas more society there so many ways in which. [inaudible] >> first liberty of dallas it was first liberty that one the lineman case. >> david doing to shepherd a couple of questions for us here? >> sure we barely scratch the surface we've open and read the preface that is about it. but there is time for a couple of questions. with a microphone stationed at each side of the front. so if you would make your way to the microphone to ask a question i think we probably have time for two or three. >> hello judge star you talked of the conscious protection on
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the legislative said what about the pending case of fulton versus philadelphia involving catholic social services? possible outcome and impact on this? >> why do i do that. [laughter] take a bold prediction. but, i base that on my study of the case, let me describe the case very briefly. fulton is a beautiful grandmother, african american very devout roman catholic who, through social services the archdiocese of philadelphia is taking into her beautiful home foster children in her place, eventually, hopefully for adoption. this has been her work, her wife crawling as a layperson for 30 years. the city of philadelphia yanked the license of catholic social services based on an
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article that appeared in the philadelphia newspaper that pointed out that css would not place foster children in a nontraditional families. no one had complained. there were plenty of service providers who in fact gladly placed children and nontraditional homes including the homes of same partners, same married couples. but that one article, here is this is a cultural war, prompted the city council and the other city officials of philadelphia say we are going to condemn bigotry and so we yanked the license for their hundreds of children in philadelphia who need to be placed and yet they has been sidelined you could no longer provide them services. so happily the firemen have
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rushed to the rescue, the archdiocese of philadelphia the case was argued one of the early cases justice baird heard in november. and of the argument went very well. i am prior full be the super majority i don't think we can convince. i am hopeful that will be a moderate opinion by justice brian was struggling to get middle ground in this question seemed to him extreme heat yanked their license. that's the tenor of his questions justice kagan likewise seemed to be somewhere in between. i think we will win. there is an example of a city government stepping in and saying we are going take the side of one community in the culture wars.
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>> kent is in a sign of the cultural change on the growing hostilities and religion? it's not just the balancing of a couple of things as you say, these people are tarred as bigots as the equality act will do them. would you agree this is more the national movement rather than the propping of a case in philadelphia? >> unfit case is empirical it's a manifestation of this national movement. it is frequently evil because you are denying the dignity of these individuals in same-sex marriages and the like. and it does seem disturbing the notion that people who hold traditional views on now for a couple of millennia. talk about tradition, are now
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tarred as haters and bigots when effect they have a different understanding of what love, charity, and equality means spirit i would argue the founders themselves had an understanding of happiness. they talked about it the declaration and equality and so forth. this is >> education. also the loss of the trends we have the power to do this we are going to do it we are going to take advantage of it that is my personal view of what's happening with the equality act. >> i think it is a suggestion there are those who are critics of the society that we cannot have different kinds of visions of human good. there is only one vision and we will punish you or deprive
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you of your ability to carry on line and fulton's case your ministry that what you are called to do to work with these precious children. >> there something about a totalitarian impulse there isn't this an old story? we know the truth. we have the power we're going to force you especially on these moral issues. >> i think i would use, you are the political scientists,. >> don't accuse me of that laugh was certainly agree there's not an authoritarian impulse, totalitarian is a little harsh. and i think it's a lack of respect for the idea of a pluralistic society and soleimani people here in this room have supported or have attended religiously affiliated schools pretty going to essentially say was the oregon legislature did in
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the 1920s are going to abolish the catholic schools? we do not like the catholic schools were going to abolish them after the supreme court of the united states is you can't do that catholic schools must be permitted in a society and our sweet land of liberty continue to exist. >> another question. to the decision and particularly what seems like a real sense of disenchantment with justice courses and the opinion he issued. and seems issued according to him a ritualist grounds. one could argue it's a very poor form of originals and that he uses. can you speak to what your thoughts about that are? is that a failure of original
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-ism? was that a misapplication by justice courses? >> research on what statutory this is an interpretation of the civil rights laws of title vii and unemployment to protect on grounds of sexual identity or gender identity and sexual orientation. it certainly was i thought a creative interpretation of the statute in terms of what congress understood in 1964 word to mean. i profoundly disagree does it. at the same time it's a be not dismayed be disappointed but not dismayed because justice time and time again has been a great champion of religious freedom. what i believe was a mistake in the interpretation of federal law as opposed to the
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constitution of the united states had some very soothing paragraph about religious liberty. so did justice kennedy, which of course are recognized in the constitution this right of human dignities to decide who you are and make a marriage decision based on your sense of who you are into your partner is. even there, built in railcars oracle railcars to say religious should be protected. i would say do not give up all hope look at the church closing cases one of the most powerful pro religious liberty voices has been justice gorsuch. >> thank you. >> let me just say you for the best defense of the supreme court which in my view sometimes is indefensible.
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it is very persuasive and this is a very persuasive man. join me in thanking. [applause] >> thank you. [applause] >> concert formers independent counsel present baylor university will be our guest on in-depth, live on sunday august 1 at noon eastern. he will discuss his books and answer your questions about the clinton investigation, morality and religious liberty in america, the supreme court and more. join book tv on sunday, august 1 for in-depth with ken starr. book tv this guesses latest nonfiction books. tonight on after words, economists dambisa moyo has a view of corporate boards on
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her book how boards work and how they can work better in a category best-selling author james patterson former president bill clinton discussed their thriller the president's daughter about the abduction of former u.s. president's daughter by terrorists. find a full schedule on the program guide or visit >> here's a look at some books being published this week. american marxism tv radio host mark clement argues that marxist ideology has entered american institutions and threatens the constitution. attorneys katherine culbertson and julie kaye explored the legal battle over abortion and controlling women. and it checkmate and berlin, kyles milton looks at the cold war tensions between america and the soviet union over berlin. also being published this week doctor adam stern recounts his time participating in a
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psychiatry residency at harvard and committed the story of tossed on the hormone that dominates and divides us human evolutionary biology professor karol kuvin how testosterone has shaped human evolution and carry on as a collection of writings by the late democratic congressman john lewis of georgia. find these titles this coming week wherever books are sold watch for many of these authors to appear in the near future on book tv. >> c-span is c-span's online store. as a c-span products browse to see what is new per your purchase will support of nonprofit organizations are still time to organize a congressional director with contact information for members of congress and the biden administration breaker to >> next on c-span book tv
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atlantic staff writer georgia bakker makes his case for how to reunite americans. columbia university professor shares his thoughts on how americans can move away from political polarization. and later harvard university professor provides a history of religion and the importance of the church in black communities. find more information on your program guide or now come here's author george packer. >> hello everyone welcome to the store's virtual event series my name is hal and the event director of the bookstore and an absolute thrill today to get to welcome george packer for the release of last best hope american crisis and renewal in conversation with williams. but the pandemic is taken a toll on all of our lives, events like the one you see her become bright spots in our days to give a huge thanks for guess for joining us this evening especially to george what our favorite locals. some housekeeping should build to see in your presenters but they cannot hear or see you. so if you


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