tv Cuomo Prime Time CNN August 25, 2021 10:00pm-11:00pm PDT
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the head of european command told reporters the baby girl has been given the name reach. as unlikely as that may sound a u.s. general said the parents agreed to the name in honor of the call sign of the c-17 that carried her and her parents to safety, reach. officials said she was born in the cargo bay. two other babies were delivered successfully at an american military hospital after they landed and are both doing well, as is the infant born on the plane, reach. congratulations to all. that's it for us. the news continues. we'll head over to chris for "cuomo prime time." chris? >> we need a lot more happy endings. thank you very much, anderson. welcome to "prime time." we really need to figure out what we are about in this country. our government learns there are terror threats at the kabul airport and their reaction is to tell americans who are desperate and dying to get out to leave. are you kidding me? here is the u.s. government warning issued just now. because of security threats outside the gates of kabul airport we are advising u.s.
citizens to avoid traveling to the airport and avoid airport gates at this time unless you receive individual instructions from a u.s. government representative to do so. those who are at the abbey gate, east gate, or north gate now should leave immediately. question, why isn't the answer to bring americans into the airport to keep them safe? especially if you can really say that these are americans? why are you sending them away? what would you do to people that you care about when you learned they were threatened? would you send them away or want to keep them close? bring them into the airport. why not? where is the answer to that question? look, terrorists are coming for the people that america is trying to get out. right now. not just taliban hunting women and friendlies. this threat is the new isis, isis-k. "k" stands for a province they come from. it's up on the pakistan border.
a lot of the taliban, a lot of the bad guys are not even from afghanistan. listen, what does this mean about when america will get the americans out? because now, is this threat going to delay? are we going back to this august 31 b.s.? is that going to become a hard out again? that was a media and political party trap. it was a gotcha. what are you going to do? what are you going to do? what are you going to do? the biden administration did not deal with it well and they just got on message that they're going to complete the job no matter what. will this spook them into having to make a quick exit? they were finally getting that they can't leave until you get all americans and allies out. here is the good news. they are getting people out. we just got new numbers. since august 14th when kabul fell the state department tabulates as many as 6,000 americans wanted to leave and since then roughly 4,500 were evacuated along with family members. secretary blinken says his
department is in contact with 500 americans still there and is aggressively reaching out to what could be 1,000 more but likely less. so approximately 1,500 american citizens remain and the white house says it is not putting a cap on the number of siv applicants they hope to get out by tuesday. now, look, i know some of you don't buy the numbers. i know that you have no good reason to buy the numbers because the white house has said they're not sure about the numbers. blinken now put out new numbers. is he completely sure of these numbers? i doubt he would say yes. these are their best estimates. will you hear different ones from different sources? yes. should there be coordination of this? yes. is there? no. is that part of the problem? yes. now that is the truth. and the bigger truth is this place has never been safe for americans. there's been a lot of blood spilled in that country and it kept us safe for over 20 years. the job remains the same.
get as many of our people out as you can safely whatever it takes. the reality hasn't changed. chances are bad things are coming in afghanistan. taliban, isis-k, or some other alphabet. there will be chatter about america running away and being weak, negotiating with the taliban. we used to not negotiate with terrorists. now we say they're not that bad and they deserve a chance to have a stake in this. what are we about? in a few months you will hear talk of bad guys there making plans to get us here. just like isis-k is now targeting people at the airport. there will be more in all likelihood. but right now it doesn't change anything. this is an evacuation and has never been safe and you've always had the same job and it is time you just knuckle up and say you're going to do it. get everybody out no matter when
it takes, even if it gets ugly because you have to get them out period, because when american forces leave those left behind will likely pay a price. getting out will be at the mercy of men known for being merciless and the women there will be in grave, grave danger. even while saying they'll be the kinder, more inclusive taliban, they are telling women to stay inside for their own safety. and now this new threat, isis-k. there will always be a threat. are we handling this one the right way? does it deter from the mission? that is what matters. let's take up those questions with a better mind. former cia counterterror official phil mudd, what do you think? >> boy, i look at this and say if you're on the ground you have a difficult choice if you are the americans. the americans are talking about specific threats. if you get specific threats in you have no choice. no choice. except what we used to call in government duty to warn. you have to tell the people on the ground. you have to move away because there is a risk.
i'm just assuming here but there is a risk of something like a backpack bomb or suicide bomber with a truck. the reason why the american government would tell americans to leave is if they can't afford not to tell people not to congregate around the entrances to the airfield. what else are they supposed to say? the challenge to close, chris, the challenge for people on the ground is, you have the americans saying there is a potential physical threat at the airport but if i go home there is a potential threat from the taliban coming after my family. the people at the airport have no good options, and nor do we. >> why isn't the good option to bring them in? >> you could bring them in if this is a target and you could walk through a turnstile but you have to certify who is who. those people have to go across town and go in concentrated areas that are prime targets for someone who is plotting a terror attack. what is your choice if you're an american? congregate around the gates because we have specific threats that say you're targeted or say go home?
they don't have good choices, we don't have good choices. there is no good answer. >> but phil, if you tell them to go away, you are now automatically making good on the threat by isis-k or whoever is making it because you're now putting them in even more danger. the further they get from that airport the less chance they ever get back to it. >> that assumes we can't improve the processes over the next five, six days. look at what's happened over the past five, six days. would you have said we'd be at 80-plus thousand people five or six days ago? i'd have said no way. that also assumes something that nobody is talking about. that there will not be a plan for september. if you're sitting in the pentagon, the state department, the white house today along with the cia, one of the first questions i would have would be, how do you ensure that there is a conversation potentially with the taliban? remember the cia director met the taliban for how to get people out after august 31st, especially american citizens. i wouldn't judge that there is not a plan to do that. i'm not saying it is great but
it's better than having people congregate around a gate and get blown up, chris. >> you know my suggestion. i don't understand why you would put any weight on the august 31st date. i don't understand why biden did. i think he was duped by the media asking him gotcha questions and the fringe political base that worked against him. why did they ever play into that? oh, it's in the deal. the guys who made the deal say the deal was a joke. you never honored the deal. you didn't work on the deal. why honor it now and give the taliban that kind of respect? so the cia guy goes to meet with the taliban guy, comes out, next thing biden says is that is a real date. what does it tell you about the meeting? >> it says nothing about the deal. i completely agree. a deal doesn't matter if it involves the security of american citizens. if you can extend the deadline and get people out i don't care what we told the taliban. these are people who go into soccer stadiums and assassinate people for doing things like stealing. >> what i'm saying, phil, how come this isn't the dialogue? look, i know you think you'll be in charge here. that never happens until we leave.
you know it. we both know what happens when we stay. let's stop the illusions. what it will take for us to take you out. the taliban know it is a straight, big, fat "l" against the united states military. why isn't the discussion as soon as i get my people out and the allies, i'm gone. that is what you want. let it happen. help me make it happen. why isn't that the deal? >> too much risk. i don't think the deal makes any difference, as i said. i think people are placing too little emphasis on the cia director's meeting. he goes out from that meeting and shortly thereafter the president says we're out. why? i'll make a bet. that is because the taliban told the cia director you guys are out or else you guys are in deep trouble. the taliban holds the cards. they can go after the people who are affiliated with us and slit their throats. they can go after american citizens and slit their throats if we don't leave and they have done that. so what is your choice as commander-in-chief? extend the deadline and risk people's lives or say we'll get 110,000, 120,000 people out and
save american servicemen by leaving on time. no good choice. i would have done what biden did. >> phil, let's play it out. okay? >> yes. >> so you leave and you brag about your number and then people like me poke holes in the number for the next 2 1/2 weeks because we don't know if it is real. what happens to the people left behind? these stories you are talking about are guaranteed if you leave whoever is left behind and by your equation there will definitely be people left behind and that is exactly what is going to happen. you say no good answers. i say but there are levels of suck here and staying and testing the taliban, how can that not be better than giving them free reign over people you know as you say they want to slit their throats? >> risk/reward. if you leave late the taliban start to assassinate people. reward is, what do you get for the upside? potentially get the people out in september without risk to their lives. if you are the president and commander-in-chief your responsibility partly is for the serviceman and women who are
there who are going to leave and if they leave a day late and there is a car bomb and 20 of them die, a lot of us remember what happened in beirut 35 years ago, it is on you. what is your risk/reward? there is no good risk/reward but if i were him i'd say the risk of staying and dead american civilians and military by isis or taliban is greater. the risk of staying is lesser than the risk of leaving. >> what is the leverage to have any kind of deal in september? what phil is talking about is some negotiated detente, okay, where they keep letting people leave. even if the americans aren't there. why would they do that? >> i don't think there is a lot of leverage for afghan citizens. the taliban has already said and i think they are completely embarrassed by this, they have a brain drain. the taliban has said these people shouldn't be leaving. as far as let's say depending on the numbers looking at secretary blinken's conversation today you have 1,000 people left.
i could see going to the taliban and saying we want 1,000 out because if they don't come out there is going to be tremendous embarrassment for you and at that point if the taliban starts going after people all bets are off. they've already proven they'll kill people. we lock and load on them. one last thing, chris, we're not focusing on the cia director's meeting. not only would he have talked about the potential departure date and i'm sure the taliban said get the hell out or we're coming after you, he has a phone number. if things start going ugly with american citizens after august 31st i guarantee he is the avenue not the state department or pentagon to call the taliban and say, you got to get our people out but the afghans who worked with us, chris, are in trouble. >> i just don't know how it is acceptable. i hear you, brother. you've done these deals and had these conversations and i respect you and i understand why you are saying it but i can't believe america can't do better than say, hey, there is a threat. everybody run away. hey, you bad guys, you hold all the cards and we'll do whatever you want. it is hard to square with what we are supposed to be about.
i appreciate you, brother. we'll keep putting the puzzle together and get your take. thank you. >> i'll see you. >> man. dark days. you ever thought you'd be having conversations like this about the mightiest military in the world? can't even get your own people out? a threat tells you to tell your own people to run away back to the places you know are most dangerous? the taliban are doing their part, right? they're loving this. they are issuing a new warning to the women and girls of afghanistan. i referred to it in the open. for their own good. these guys are the threat telling women to stay inside for their own good? they are the threat. what does that mean about what is going to happen when we leave? not that america has as its job to stay in afghanistan forever. i've never said that. but our next guest is an afghan journalist who knows the reality and took those fears to the pentagon. did you see this? >> i lived from the taliban like 20 years ago. now we go back to the first step
again. >> why is she so upset? why is she more worried now than ever? hear directly from this journalist next. hey kim, with 5% cash back on travel purchased through chase from freedom unlimited, you're always earning! book that hotel kim. because you are worth it. i am worth it! earn 5% on travel purchased through chase, and so much more. chase. make more of what's yours. my plaque psoriasis... ...the itching ...the burning. the stinging. my skin was no longer mine. my psoriatic arthritis, made my joints stiff, swollen... painful. emerge tremfyant™. with tremfya®, adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis... ...can uncover clearer skin and improve symptoms at 16 weeks. tremfya® is the only medication of its kind also approved for adults with active psoriatic arthritis. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections
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yep... everything hurts. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ let's be real about who and what we're dealing with here. okay? the taliban deserves no respect as any legitimate state builder. all right? they have a perverse sense of religious justice. they maim and kill for minor infractions and that is with men. with women the best of times are the worst of times. they are property. often brutalized, almost always subjugated sometimes measured in worth when traded for cattle. and now the taliban itself is telling women to stay at home. that they can't work because their soldiers are not trained to respect women. think about that.
remember, last time taliban were in power, '96 to 2001, women couldn't work. they have to cover their entire bodies. they are not allowed to leave home unless accompanied. my next guest knows this reality firsthand. she fled taliban rule. she became a journalist. she is the american dream. she was in the pentagon briefing room last week pressing the admiral on the whereabouts of the afghan president last week when those memories of her own reality came flooding back. >> i am from afghanistan as you know and i am very upset today. because afghan women didn't expect that overnight all the taliban would come. they took off my flag. this is my flag. they put their flag. everybody is upset, especially women. women have a lot of achievement in afghanistan. i had a lot of achievement.
i left from the taliban like 20 years ago. now we go back to the first step again? >> she joins us now. welcome to "prime time." thank you for making your witness. >> thanks, chris, for having me. i am so honored and so happy that, you know, one more time i raise my voice for afghan voiceless through a popular show. appreciate it. thank you. >> the idea that we are hearing is america has to leave sooner rather than later or the taliban will hurt people. what do you think happens no matter when america leaves? >> thank you. it is a great question. everybody in my country including women, men, kids, all
afghan people, 38 million people, you know, like to leave sooner or later but based on my opinion state by state, unfortunately, the time that the united states or biden administration made the decision to leave afghanistan in this sensitive time it is a little hard for everybody especially for women especially me that i am woman, i am a journalist, but nowadays i would like to talk as an afghan woman because the situation in afghanistan is sensitive. they start two years ago the peace process, united states, signed agreement with the taliban but everybody, you know, expected, you know, to take time step by step. but, unfortunately, the taliban also didn't keep their commitment and overnight took over all of afghanistan and president ghani like a week ago disappeared. that is why i was crying.
and this woman, it is better to not cry -- president ghani always called afghan people, afghanistan people including men, women, kids, they are my kids. they are my children. how can he have left everybody alone? >> he's gone. >> i agree with you but it is not time to -- the u.s. to leave alone afghan people because -- >> bad things are going to happen. do this. please. tell people, what do you think will happen to women when america is not there anymore? >> it is a great question. everybody knows nowadays afghanistan is a rich country. we have a great people.
you know, as women we have educated women, members of parliament, sports women, journalists, engineers. let me tell you a story, chris. a month ago i asked president biden that what is your warm and sweet message to afghan women? because everybody is worried. a month ago the taliban started to take over afghanistan. based off of that argument, in doha, qatar, and president biden answered my question. and he said, even in afghanistan when he was former president obama's, you know, worked at that time with president obama, and he said i faced two afghan kids, afghan children that once said please don't leave afghanistan and president biden said i asked them why and the kids said because we have plans
to be a doctor and journalist and you guys have to stay in afghanistan because we need to get our goal. president biden said one of the reasons that we supported afghan people, afghan military, afghan women, that was the reason. nowadays they are a doctor, journalist, engineer, that is why we'd like to continue our support to the afghan people and afghan kids. you know, the kids now, doctor, engineer, but he promised me that biden administration continue their support. now i'd like to ask again president biden you promised a month ago but unfortunately taliban took over afghanistan. still you are going to support afghan people? this is a question mark.
and i'm going to come to your question, the taliban is here. me as an afghan journalist, as an afghan woman that i experienced taliban policy on 1996. i am not optimistic. i have to be optimistic but based off taliban old policy, i'm not optimistic because women have accomplishments, achievements, a lot of achievement. you know, they would like to keep that -- you know, the taliban isn't -- they have ideology that it is difficult for someone to change their policy. right now i am so grateful i'm happy the taliban promised afghan people that they are changed. maybe this is a new generation of taliban. we have to keep our hope. but how can you change someone's ideology?
of course if the taliban continue the same. let me tell you something, chris. taliban has announced amnesty for all, for everybody -- government people or not government. unfortunately i heard, i got a bunch of phone calls every day, people called me, more than 100 people crying and shared with me a different story. today like ten minutes before i came to your show somebody said, the taliban torture women, torture men. how come taliban, you know, doesn't keep their commitment of amnesty? >> i'm hearing the same stories and that is why we have to keep an eye on this. look, let's do this. you'll be hearing stories. you know we're a phone call away for you to share the information so we can get it out to people. the taliban themselves just put out a warning to women that they should stay home from work because the soldiers aren't trained to respect women.
we can't expect anything but what we've seen. it's never been good for women as a starting point. so i appreciate you taking time on this show. we're always a phone call away. i am very happy for your success and presence and i hope somehow there are many more who can follow in your footsteps. thank you and be well. listen, i mean, what else do you need to know? we all know this. we all know the reality. i'm not saying it is america's job to make afghanistan a better place or any place. i understand the politics of it. but don't sleep on the reality either. it makes the evacuation that much more pressing and allies that much more pressing. now to the war at home. a new, sobering covid reality. there are more hospitalizations now than since the early weeks of the vaccine rollout. why?
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guest. he wrote an opinion piece in "the washington post." the headline was unvaccinated covid patients are straining hospitals like mine where i had to turn a cancer patient away. he joins us now. welcome to "prime time," doctor. thank you. >> thank you for having me, chris. >> what is the reality of what you're seeing? >> i mean, what you said is absolutely correct. delta is ripping through the hospitals in ways that we couldn't have imagined and the strain it is causing on the health care system is unimaginable. as i pointed out in the editorial i wrote i had to turn away a cancer patient that needed emergency treatment because my hospital didn't have any beds. when i established my cancer practice, i'm a third generation oncologist. the one principle my family built treating cancer patients off is we would never turn away a patient regardless of whether they could pay or not and for the first time in my family history we had to turn someone away. >> why? >> we just didn't have a bed. there was simply no room in the
hospital. to treat the patient. >> we are hearing they're taking covid patients from hospitals and sending them home because they have other covid patients who are even worse they need to put in the beds. have you heard stories like that? >> i haven't heard that particularly. what we are seeing is just a tremendous amount of patients coming in. the other day our emergency room had a 12-hour wait. almost every hospital in the city is on diversion meaning they don't have room to take transfer patients. patients who need complex care simply can't access it. this kind of strain is something we've never seen before. >> what do you say to people you're in florida who say, look. the vaccine, they don't even know if it works that well. they keep changing the data. all you need, just listen to the governor. you just need an antibody treatment and you'll be fine if you get it. basically the same thing as having the vaccine. what do you say to them? >> well, you have my colleague steve hahn on the other day, former commissioner of the fda. he said it best.
this is the best tool we have to fight the pandemic. no question about it. we're seeing in the hospitals greater than 90% of the people admitted in the icus are unvaccinated. there is no question the vaccine is the best option we have. it is also the cheapest option we have. it is the most effective and there is no reason people should be avoiding the vaccine. there is not a single patient we've had to intubate because of a complication from the vaccine. the people we are intubating, people on life support and dying are the ones not vaccinated. >> how difficult do you think it is to fight against what we are calling the politics here but it really isn't, right? it is mis and disinformation. the idea that mask mandates are the problem and let the parents choose and all that. especially in your state. what do you think of that? >> you're absolutely right. it is not politics and it shouldn't be. it is misinformation. there are a lot of reasons for that misinformation, social media and other sources of information people are gathering but as physicians we have to rely on people like you to get
the positive message out, the truth out that, listen. this is a simple solution. the vaccine is a simple answer to help us end this pandemic. dr. fauci said i think today that he is hopeful by spring that we can end this pandemic if we can increase our vaccination rates and we've just got to do it. >> well, the whole problem is who is the we? this country is now the vaccinated and the unvaccinated and the only people the unvaccinated will listen to are the people who made it okay for them not to take it in the first place. doctor, you are not a politician and i won't make you one. thank you for doing your job to try to keep people alive in a very hard environment. i wish you well. >> thank you, sir. thank you for having me on the show. >> all right. so look. florida's governor is a good indicator of how this brand of politics, which i don't really believe that is what it is, but how is he doing as a function of what he is doing? we have the wizard of odds here
with a look inside ron desantis' approval numbers. there is a reality found in there. i don't think you're going to be -- you're going to be surprised. next. ♪ ♪ life can be a lot to handle. ♪this magic moment,♪ but there's plenty of magic in all that chaos. ♪so different and so new.♪ ♪was like any other...♪ now, simparica trio simplifies protection. ticks and fleas? see ya! heartworm disease? no way! simparica trio is the first chewable that delivers all this protection. and simparica trio is demonstrated safe for puppies. it's simple: go with simparica trio. this drug class has been associated with neurologic adverse reactions, including seizures; use with caution in dogs with a history of these disorders. protect him with all your heart. simparica trio. (man) so when in doubt, just say,
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florida's governor is ron desantis. he says masks don't help prevent kids from getting covid. and yet polling shows 6 in 10 floridians support requiring masks in schools. so where does that leave the governor's standing with voters as the numbers in florida continue to spiral out of control and account for some of the worst metrics in the country? the reality with the wizard of odds. what do we see, brother? >> i mean, not perhaps what you might expect. look at where ron desantis' approval rating is among florida voters right now. it is the same as it was on
election day 2020. look at this. should he be re-elected in 2022? 48% of florida voters say yes compared to just 45% who say no. that is close but given where the cases are, given where the hospitalizations are in florida, i think that a lot of the viewers would expect his numbers to be far worse than they actually are. >> let's put this together with another piece and then have a conclusion for people. show biden's numbers in florida. >> look at this. much worse than ron desantis' numbers are in florida. this is what politics is basically coming down to right now. it is negative partisanship. it is not just how am i doing. it's how is my opponent doing or how are the democrats doing? what we see here is that desantis, you watch him go on fox news. he always plays off against the democrats. this is a smart move in a state like florida where joe biden's approval rating is down significantly over the last few months and so for him he's like, you know what? i don't have to be doing that great. i just have to be doing better than the other guys.
>> covid, well, right. it is who is worse, right? that is the breakdown. who's worse? and it is all partisan. if anybody thinks that covid created clarity that was transcendent of politics, it's just reinforce the same old rules. >> that is exactly right. it's just reinforced the same old rules. what i'll note here is that i think a lot of people expect a certain relationship with covid, right? when cases are up you expect that the incumbents would be punished. if cases are down the incumbents should benefit. but what in fact do we see? this is the 2016 versus the 2020 election. if you look at the change between those two in the counties in which there were more covid cases in the top quartile what happened to the democratic margin? it went down. donald trump improved in places where covid deaths were highest. in fact, where he did worse was where they were lowest. >> why? >> the reason why is a bunch of things. number one where the cases tended to be lowest were places
where for example -- >> people wear masks, had testing, believed. >> especially white voters with college degrees in the suburban areas versus a lot of places that might be rural where trump did better in they might not necessarily believe or in the urban areas especially among people of color. remember, donald trump vastly improved specifically among hispanics. african-americans as well even though they had some of the highest rates and death rates from covid. >> it's very interesting. it also makes me wrong. i say this country is divided and the reality is it is the vaccinated against the unvaccinated. but no it isn't, because over 50% of republicans i bet you even in florida you'd have to look and let us know but they're vaccinated. and they're still backing desantis even though you would think the vaccinated would be against somebody keeping people from doing what they're supposed to do in the pandemic. the pandemic is not as strong as poison politics.
>> it is not. you point out republicans and you're right. we don't have an exact number -- actually we do. i will tell you a majority of republicans are vaccinated in the state of florida but take a look here, right? if you are looking ahead to 2024 should ron desantis run for president, 67% of florida republicans say yes. this is a huge advantage for someone like desantis going forward into 2024. there are a ton of delegates in a state like florida. remember when donald trump knocked marco rubio out of the 2016 race he did so in florida where he was able to defeat a sitting senator in his own state. if he can win a primary in florida and the numbers among republicans indicate he can he could ride all the way to the nomination and so far the coronavirus is not keeping desantis down. if anything he is able to go on fox and pump himself up. >> harry, thank you very much for the reality behind the numbers. >> my pleasure, my friend. here is a weird controversy to get you thinking about what are we doing in this society
these days? you remember this? remember this album cover? you remember everything, nirvana, "smells like teen spirit"? smells like litigation now. the song was one the best selling records of all time. "nevermind" is an icon. part of the reason, just part, was the cover art. the baby who is not a baby anymore. he is 30 and guess what? he is suing. why? you will want to hear this. next.
you need an ecolab scientific clean here. and you need it here. and here. and here. which is why the scientific expertise that helps operating rooms stay clean is now helping the places you go every day too. seek a commitment to clean. look for the ecolab science certified seal. they're telling me go, go, go, but i want to hear the song. if you are a nirvana fan, you likely remember the iconic put it in front of my face. remember this album? everybody does. that baby from their cover art. his fame was spencer elden. he is no baby anymore.
you want to feel old? he is 30 and he is suing nirvana for, quote, child pornography. now, here is some context. in 2007, um, spencer said he finds it kind of creepy that many people have seen me naked. i feel like the world's biggest porn star. on the other hand, he's often re-created the photo several times. the guy supposedly has never mind tatted on his chest. cnn has reached out to the defendants in the case. we have yet to hear back. joining us now is elden's attorney, maggie maybe. it's good to have you, counselor. part of the lyrics of that song is, i found it hard. it's hard to find. oh well, whatever. never mind. i'm a little bit like that with your complaint. that's why i want to talk to you about it. i get you bringing a claim that he was never paid. or i guess, his legal guardians or parents weren't paid for the photo. that's a -- that's a complaint i could understand you might be told by statute of limitations on it. but how do you get to pornography here? >> so our firm centralizes our
practice in child pornography litigation and when you look at the case law here and you look at the dosed factors that will help a jury determine whether or not an image constitutes child pornography. one of those factors, which is very clear here in the image, is that the focal point of the image is the minor's genitalia. and here, in that image, along with all of the other dose factors as we have pled in our complaint, it's a very oversexualized image and it does constitute child pornography. more importantly, it was child exploitation the way they created it and the way that they continue to distribute the image today. >> well, look. again, the second part of that. i could see 'em having a claim against his parents, right? this was their decision. but that's one issue. were they compensated? did they know? everybody's going to be familiar with that. but the other part of this. i don't know ever remember anybody ever writing or anything being out there in society about
this image as a sexualized or pornographic image. i always thought that it was a suggestion of how right out of the womb, people are just grabbing for money and doing any -- everything they can. i thought it was more about capitalism, than it was sexuality. why are you so sure about your position? and why is he bringing it now, after all these years of seeming to be okay with it? >> i'm sure the position because if you look at the case law and the dose factors and you analyze this image comparing to those factors, it very much constitutes child pornography. and i think the reason that spencer is bringing this suit now is because he's about to face a very large invasion of his privacy, yet again, at the 30th anniversary. and when that album is released, he expects for his privacy to be invaded. and this display of his genitalia to be put all across the world, yet again. spencer wants this image redacted. he is saying that he doesn't want his genitalia out there for the world to consume, any
longer. and if we have this image redacted, that would be a monumental signal for all victims of child pornography that their voices are being heard and their privacy is being respected. >> you think that this man is -- is really a good face for the pain of child pornography? somebody who's made money out of it. has a tattoo on his chest about it. has celebrated it at different times in his life and had all this time to reach out about it in the context that you are offering now and never did? you really think that this is something that would be comforting to a real victim? >> spencer -- spencer's connection with nirvana while may have been celebrated is not the same as his image being displayed. he can say i don't have a problem being on the cover. i have a problem with my genitalia being displayed on the cover. we are asking nirvana to do what they contemplated doing 30 years ago, which is to redact the genitalia from the image. kurt coy bain said himself they contemplated whether or not they
would put a sticker over the genitalia. >> that's not accurate. in my reading of it, unless you have spoken to the executives involved at the time, which your litigation doesn't say you have. they wanted -- there was some discussion on the label's side about doing something. and khis response was the only thing i would do that if you are bothered by this image, you are a closet pedophile or something like that. i don't think that is the same as your reckoning but again especially because i hear your arguments but to say this will be comforting to actual victims of child pornography. that -- that's a heavy statement. and your client has had a lot of time to do this. >> we represent victims of child pornography. we have had clients reach out to say how proud they are of spencer for being this courageous. and for asserting his rights because they, too, feel his rights have been invaded similarly to theirs. >> but he just found this now? listen, i'm with you.
just so you understand, counselor, i'd be happy to talk to you about the exploitation of kids in images and how sexuality of them can be used. and more importantly, abused. i'm with you. i am talking about the instant litigation. he didn't do this for many, many years. in fact, i don't even know how you get past the statute of limitations on it but how do you explain him never taking this step until now? >> all victims of child pornography have until they have discovered the injury and then ten years later under 225 to sue. this also doesn't begin to toll even until the age of 18. so it is contemplated in understanding how these crimes work that a victim wouldn't come forward until they're 28 or older. >> yes. >> so given what we know about these crimes, this is not abnormal behavior. and spencer has expressed his discontent with being displayed this way many, many times, for years in the past. this is not a newly manifested issue. >> but he's gone back and forth,
right? he's also celebrated it and used it to his own advantage. he's tattooed the name of the album on his chest. and again, that recollection dynamic that you discuss is very important in the allaw and it's based in psychology and it's one of the few favors the law has done to psychology, frankly. but it is about when people are able or, for whatever reason, develop recollection of abuse and trauma that has been secreted away or buried or psychologically kept out of their consciousness from when they were children. and i know you know this but just for the audience. how does this apply to that? how is this, him realizing that he was abused as a child? >> this is spencer realizing that the image of his genitalia -- and it's not just a new realization. this is spencer asserting that the image of his genitalia is being exploited ongoing to this day, every day. and he's known that and he's
felt that. and this is not about money. this is about redacting the image to respect his privacy. >> money is involved. just for what it's worth. >> i know, but i'm saying don't say it's not involved. it is in there. that's all. but listen. counselor, i'm happy to have you make the case here. we will see what the court of public opinion decides, and i appreciate you taking the opportunity. #. >> i try my cases in the court of law. thank you. >> i know. but not tonight cause that's where we are. we'll see what they say. be well and good luck. we'll be right back with the handoff. ♪ ayy, ayy, ayy ♪ ♪ yeah, we fancy like applebee's on a date night ♪ ♪ got that bourbon street steak with the oreo shake ♪ ♪ get some whipped cream on the top too ♪ ♪ two straws, one check, girl, i got you ♪ ♪ bougie like natty in the styrofoam ♪ ♪ squeak-squeakin' in the truck bed all the way home ♪ ♪ some alabama-jamma, she my dixieland delight ♪ ♪ ayy, that's how we do, ♪ ♪ how we do, fancy like, oh ♪