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tv   CNN Tonight  CNN  July 25, 2014 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT

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>> i picked up the phone. collin said something's happened to the senator. ♪ there's something happening here ♪ >> "the 60s" next thursday night on cnn. this is cnn breaking news. >> this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. breaking news in the middle east. it is just before sunrise in jerusalem and gaza where israel and hamas have agreed to a 12-hour ceasefire beginning just three hours from now. the question tonight, will that ceasefire hold? and is the united states on the verge of a new cold war with russia? the russians are massing troops and weapons on their border. the pentagon says they plan to move those powerful weapons into ukraine, and that it could happen at any moment. >> heads down, hands up!
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>> a police s.w.a.t. team storms a plane after a passenger makes a direct threat against the flight. with the skies increasingly unfriendly over the past week, many of you are tweeting us with your concerns, especially with the safety of flying. the air safety task force is standing by to answer your questions. let us know what you think. make sure you tweet us using the #askdon. also ahead tonight, is it time to bring back the firing squad for death row inmates? with another botched execution making headlines, we're going to hear from a federal judge who says the firing squad and the guillotine are more efficient options than lethal injections. israel and hamas agree to a 12-hour ceasefire set to begin in three hours. we're going straight to correspondent john vause. he joins us from jerusalem. john, the day is breaking and the ceasefire will take effect very shortly. what is the feeling? will it hold? >> well, don, keep in mind they agreed to a two-hour humanitarian ceasefire last
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sunday. that didn't even last an hour before it was violated and both sides blame the other for breaking that deal. one problem in all this, the idf says its troops will remain in gaza -- >> that was john vause reporting from jerusalem about the ceasefire that they agreed upon for just a few hours. and it should start in just a little bit. and of course there has been fighting there obviously for weeks now that we have been covering here on cnn. john vause back now with us from jerusalem reporting on that ceasefire. john, you said the last one. this one is supposed to be 12 hours. the last one was two hours. it barely lasted an hour. go ahead. >> yeah so, the other problems with the 12-hour window is the idf says the troops will continue to operate in gaza, looking for tunnels, the hamas tunnels, and will continue to destroy those tunnels that could be a problem. the idf has warned that it will respond to any violations and presumably hamas will as well. it could be different this time. it could be part of that down payment that john kerry, the
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secretary of state says is working towards that week-long truce. so it may be different this time. but we're also hearing from the israeli defense minister who says get ready, because the ground operation in gaza could be broadened significantly. so it just doesn't look great. >> yeah, we're hearing from a lot of people here. at the same time there were angry clashes today in the west bank, john. the plo's top negotiator told wolf blitzer he is very worried about a third intifada there and the situation could easily spin out of control. how veal that concern? >> yeah, the last couple of days has been -- >> again, having issues with john vause reporting for us in jerusalem. so we'll get back to john. so thank you to john vause reporting in jerusalem. we're going to move on now and speak with our fareed zacaria. joining me now is fareed
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zakaria, host of fareed zakaria gps on cnn. one thing that seems really clear is both sides have a deep frustration and they deeply distrust each other. how do you broker a real deal when that is going on? >> you know, don, that's actually the crucial issue, which is whatever happens in terms of a temporary truce or a ceasefire. for this to last, there has to be trust on each side. and what we're seeing is, and you see it in our reporting, and you listen to the voices of the people on both sides. there is deep, deep distrust. the united states' lead guy trying to do the peace process resigned. and he said in an interview in the atlantic magazine, he had never seen the level of distrust in 30 years of working on this stuff. his feeling is a whole generation of palestinians now believe that they are never going to get a state and that a whole generation of israelis believe that there is never going to be real security.
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the prime minister bibi netanyahu said something really important in the last week. in an interview i think it was the times of israel, he said there are no circumstances in which we will relinquish security control of the west bank. now that sounds like he is now saying the two-state solution is dead. >> it's not possible. obviously, at this point then, both sides feel that they have more to gain from continuing this than to establishing peace, correct? >> exactly. because the israelis feel, look, we're going pay the pr price whether we do it 70% of the way, whether we do it 5% of the way. let's get the tunnels out. let's get the rockets out. the hamas on the other hand feels like it needs to show that it is the one that is willing to fight israel, is willing to take the body blows. hamas had been losing popularity over the last year or two. this is their chance to though they are defiant, they're fighters, they can stand up to what they regarded as israeli aggression and occupation. >> you spoke with hillary clinton today, and everyone has this political question about
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whether she is going to win. you really asked her the pertinent question, which is as a former secretary of state, you mentioned that 75% of the casualties it has been said had been civilians. and whether israel was using excessive force. listen to what she said, and then we'll talk. >> i think that the israelis are in a very difficult position. hamas we know embeds missiles, embeds command and control units in civilian areas. now some of that is just the geography. it's a very small area, very densely populated. but some of that is a deliberate choice by hamas. and i believe that between the warnings that israelis give, sometimes it's as far ahead as four hours so that people could be moved, and also the israelis' very deliberate efforts to avoid civilian casualties, i do not think that is an accurate or fair characterization of what
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the israelis are trying to do. now having said that, too many people have died, and too many of them are clearly innocent civilians, even children. the israelis know that. >> so what do you make of her answer? because here is a struggle there. many political leaders are struggling between unconditional support for israel, but then also what do you do about the casualties and so many of them civilian? what do you make of what she said? >> you could see she is very strongly supportive of israel, and that is in a sense a bipartisan american position. by the way, that's not true around the world. around the world, there have been a lot of condemnation of israel. in fact, i would guess it would be a vast majority of heads of government have condemned israel. i don't know the exact numbers. but what is interesting is after that, she goes on to talk about settlements. i asked her, because she us theled with bibi netanyahu on this issue of israeli settlements in the west bank. what she said i thought was very important, which is in a sense, of course israel has a right to defend itself in the face of
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these rockets, in the face of this kind of an assault on its civilians. but the question is what is the long-term strategy. how do you make sure you're not doing this every year? and the long-term strategy has to be a two-state solution. and if you're building settlements in the west bank in areas that were meant to be part of the palestinian state, you're signaling to the palestinians that they're never going to get a state. she said that was her principle problem with netanyahu's government. >> yeah, as you mentioned, she did us the well netanyahu. so how do you think a hillary clinton -- i'm going to ask you the political question now -- a hillary clinton presidency would deal with this strife? >> you know, the thing about hillary clinton is she is very disciplined. she is very smart, very well briefed. she tends to be -- i wouldn't say cautious, but she is deliberate. so i don't think you're going to see anything dramatically different. i think what you would see is a kind of consensus view, not so different from what the obama administration is doing.
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i doubt she would go out on a limb on any of these questions. what i'm always struck by her is the level of intelligence, but also the level of discipline. she doesn't -- there is not a lot of unplanned freelancing that takes place in anything she says, anything she does. >> listen, i always read your columns and learn a lot. i have your column here that i read. can we talk about russia now and talk about how putin is viewed in russia. even in the middle of all of this conflict, his approval ratings are really high. >> they're really high, because he plays into a narrative that russians really believe the russians believe that they peacefully surrendered at the end of the cold war, the soviet union. they broke up the soviet empire. and that what happened was a period of bandit rule in the west. the western capitalists came, in screwed up the economy. then enter putin, and putin
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comes in and restores order and he restores russia's place in the world. against the west, against the united states, against the united states, people think, you know, he is standing up for us. they're cheering him on. and let's not forget. nationalism works pretty much everywhere. we like to -- we call it patriotism. >> and it's nationalism. what about externally, though, how he is viewed? >> i think that's where he is paying the price. not so much in the united states, where i think he already had pretty low approval ratings, you know, to the extent that people cared. in europe. i think what you're seeing is in ukraine, that ukraine was really a 50-50 country. i would say it's more like an 80-20 country now in terms of being anti-russian. in the whole of eastern europe where people thought they could do business with russia, now they're deeply distrustful, in baltic states and places like germany. this have been opinion polls in germany. and levels of distrust for russia have gone up significantly. in the long run, that can't be good for russia to be isolated like that. but in the short-run, putin is seen as the guy holding russia together and defending against
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these unfair attacks. and of course, as you know, the narrative and the media in russia is totally one-sided. >> and if you want to know how this all came about, how we got to this point, with russia and ukraine, you should read your column. it's very interesting, things i didn't even realize were going on or had been going on. thank you, fareed zakaria. >> always a pleasure. >> to see fareed's full interview with hillary clinton, check out fareed zakaria on sunday on cnn. up next, vladimir putin trying to start a new cold war with the snus the pentagon says he is massing troops and weapons on russia's board were ukraine. inside the mind of the russian leader. also ahead, a s.w.a.t. team storms this jet after a threat is made against the aircraft. >> heads down, hands up. the cadillac summer collection is here. ♪
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welcome back. the pentagon says russia's preparing to send more powerful weapons into ukraine, and that it could happen at any moment. sara sidner live in kiev, ukraine's capital.
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hello, sara. concerns about russia's troop movements in the days and hours. what can you tell us about that? >> well, we can tell you that the situation has become more and more volatile in eastern ukraine. you've got now russia and ukraine accusing each other of firing artillery over the border. the u.s. has chimed in. the pentagon saying that they have seen imagery that shows some burnt grass around a very large weapon on the russian side of the border indicating that indeed artillery had been fired. you also have u.s. intelligence saying they have evidence that russia is preparing to send in even more heavy weaponry into ukraine, ostensibly to the pro-russian rebels who are inside ukraine. and that has really created a response from russia, of course. russia basically saying this is hogwash. you don't have the evidence to prove this. and it's nearly a smear campaign. we also want to tell you that some of this fighting that has been going on there this eastern
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ukraine is happening close to the mh17 crash site. we have new information too as far as what is happening with the remains. all of the remains that have been collected so far have been put in coffins. and you've seen those terribly sad pictures, but been put in coffins now and sent to the netherlands where they're going try to positively identify the bodies. but one thing is clear. the investigation in this case is nowhere near over. don? >> are there any more details besides a body into the investigation, sara, that you can tell us about, or is it pretty much at stand still now? >> look, i think what you're seeing is that there are going to be a lot of foreign nationals coming in to this country, governments who are sending people in to try and gather more evidence. the evidence on the ground just as important as any intelligence that governments may share to understand exactly what
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happened. we should also talk a little bit, don, about sort of how we got here. we were marveling at this. today i was talking to the mayor of kiev today about how it is that what started here in the square, in maidan here in the capital where you had tens of thousands of protesters who came out, and their goal, don, was trying to get the government to be closer and have closer ties with europe as opposed to russia. when that did not happen, they wanted to oust the government. they managed to do that. the president still missing from this country, still gone and charged with corruption charges here from the current government. that's where this all started. eventually this led, though, to those who were thirsty to be closer to russia to say well, we're going to fight too. and you're seeing that play out in the east. but who would have imagined that now some of those pro-russian separatists are now being accused of shooting a plane out of the sky that happened to be flying over this country from malaysia. it's just mind-boggling, i think
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for a lot of people to consider all that has happened. and it just started, this whole thing started just back this winter, if you will remember. don? >> all right, sara sidner, appreciate that. thank you. so is vladimir putin trying to start a new cold war? i'm joined now by jonathan sanders, the associate professor stoney brook university school of journalism, and philip mudd, cnn counterterrorism analyst and former cia counterterrorism official and professor emeritus of russian studies at princeton and nyu. so philip, as sara just reported, u.s. intelligence shows that at any moment, russians are ready to transform more powerful weapons into ukraine, including tanks, armored vehicles, rocket launchers, in the face of world condemnation, putin is escalating intentions. what is he up to? >> i tell you, one of the things he is doing is thumbing his nose at us. when you're an intelligence professional, after 70 years of post world war ii collection against first the soviets and
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now the russians, collecting this type of intelligence information is not that difficult. big weapon systems, when the united states has a lot of intelligence capability, collecting this information, you know, eight, ten days ago we were speculating on what the russians were doing with a missile system that shot down an airplane. now the russians are saying forget about it, game on. we're sending stuff across the border. and we don't care whether you see it or not. >> you know, jonathan, hillary clinton told cnn's fareed zakaria today that putin is the kind of man who will go as far as he can get away with. is the world going to be sitting around slack-jawed while putin takes over eastern ukraine? what can stop him? >> well, mr. putin is machiavellian. he is determined. he is a judoist kind of fighter. he takes energy from other people and uses it. but i don't think you're getting the full story here. human rights watch, no group that particularly loves putin because he is so repressive at home had a piece today accusing the ukrainian forces of using
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rockets, grad rockets to attack cities saying it was a war crime. and it's that kind of action that is provoking putin and the kremlin as much as they control the characters in ukraine, and they don't totally control them. they've created monsters, and the monsters are doing some monstrous things. but they're backing them up. it's not just one-sided. and if you want to see this as putin guys bad, ukrainian guys good, you got it too simple. and when the kremlin says we're smearing them, well, maybe we're smearing them by only telling part of the story. >> see, it sounds like he read your article. >> well, jonathan is a historian. we've known each other a long time. and historians try to tell all sides of the story. in fact, there is an american adage there are two sides to every story. and what is missing from this story and it the suggest of my article which appears three weeks ago.
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and i do believe some of these human rights organizations that jonathan was mentioning were reacting to my assertion that we've turned a blind eye to the ukrainian government, that sour government, the government we support, has been doing to the civilian populations of cities in eastern ukraine. now those are ukrainian citizens, though they speak russian. and here is what is interesting, don. you just had a discussion with fareed zakaria. and fareed said to you, you know, outside the united states, a lot of countries object to what israel is doing. firing on civilian residences in gaza. nobody in the united states, not the american government, not the american media is objecting to the hundreds, if not thousands of civilian women and children being killed by the ukrainian army. and by the way, there is a humanitarian catastrophe. i don't know if jonathan knows the number, but there is at least 200,000 refugees on the move to avoid this war. >> jonathan, do you want to respond quickly? because i want to play
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something. >> steve right about the number of refugees. but we've been telling this story so simply as good guys and bad guys. there are lots of different parts of this. there is lots of repression that is going on back on the russian side. but you had earlier on cnn the american ambassador to kiev. and he was saying that putin's pouring gasoline on the fire. the danger is in the emotionalism back here in the united states, this are people calling for us giving weapons to the ukrainian side, which would be moring more jet fuel on the fire. and you know who is going to die? russians are going to die and ukrainians are going to die, and kids are going to die. >> okay. i want to play part of an interview with the former president of georgia today. i want to remind our viewers that russia invaded georgia back in 2008. still controls 20% of its territory. here is what the former president said about vladimir putin. >> he -- i think he believes it
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that he has to take revenge for what he regards as the united states defeating soviet union, russia in cold war. and then he always said he would undermine nato and destroy nato. and the surest way is to continue his aggressive actions toward baltic countries. so he has been -- he has been lying all the way through. but he has never been lying about his main goals. >> so do you think he can undermine nato with these actions, philip mudd? >> i think he can undermine nato, depending on what washington does, what the europeans do. the europeans i think have been quite slow to respond. the problem is if you look at the variety of security problems we have today, that is going from afghanistan through the rise of isis in iraq, now a nato problem in western europe with an american public that says we're not interested in interventionover seas anymore, it's hard to sit here and say what are we going do if we have to put up or shut up with putin saying forget about the shoot-down of the aircraft, i'm in for a dime, in for a dollar.
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i think that's what he is saying. >> stephen, you said on this program earlier this week, you know, i've been thinking about it a lot, that we are dangerously close to war with russia, given today's developments. we one step closer, do you think? >> yes deep in a new cold war, and it's getting harder and harder to get out of it. the likelihood, particularly if new sanctions are applied. and it's very hard to remove sanctions, that this cold war will now affect the next generation. how close are we to actual war? here is a scenario. any russian leader, any russian leader must protect eastern ukraine. must protect it from these -- this bombardment. if putin sends weapons or aircraft to do it, nato may enter western ukraine, either on the ground or in the air that would be, don, the cuban missile crisis, and all bets would be off. this is the most serious crisis, international crisis since the
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cuban missile crisis. and we're in a fog of war. we're getting misinformation from moscow, from kiev, from washington. i don't know how mr. mud, a professional intelligence officer, can make these sweeping assertions when no information has been released, and not even the intelligence agencies are saying publicly or even the state department what he is saying. i mean we have to be careful and get our facts straight, or we're going kill a lot of people based on false information. >> philip? >> look, i'm not saying there is not two sides of the story. and i'm not saying we only represent what we view from the west as an incursion by the russians. i suspect there has been a wide variety of attacks on civilians by the ukrainians. all i'm saying is if you think it's difficult to collect intelligence against russia and big military systems in eastern ukraine, it ain't. i'm not defending what the ukrainians are doing. i'm not defending what europe or washington is doing. >> do you know who shot down that airplane? do you know who shot down that airplane? >> no, i do. >> thank you. that's the point. that's the point. we're racing to war.
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>> what is the point? >> the point is that -- >> i didn't say anything about war. what i said was -- >> well, can i get two cents in here? >> okay, good ahead, jonathan. >> look, i think the point is the problem is exactly what shalikashvili said, although i never agree with him. the problem is nato. the problem is nato. the problem is that the president, the two, baby bush and bill clinton betrayed the promise that james baker and president bush sr. made to the russians about not expanding nato. if we try and step back from this crisis and think creatively and think what can we do to stop this war-like dangerous situation, i'm not sure i think it's as critical as a steve, but that's a degree of nuance. maybe we need to think of a different scenario. the united states and the soviet union both occupied austria. austria is now part economically
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of europe but not part of nato. maybe we need some guarantee that's the way ukraine has to go. is the united states going to go to war to defend ukraine? i don't think so. >> okay. that's going to have to be the last word. and what way to start our friday night, a heated debate on national television. and international now. we're being simulcast around the world. thank you, guys. appreciate it. jonathan sanders, philip mudd, stephen cohen. a s.w.a.t. team storms a jet after a passenger makes a threat. and next we'll answer your questions about fears of flying. ever dream of being the hero? hey, you guys mind warming this fella up for me? i'm gonna go back down, i saw some recyclables. be him with verizon xlte. find a car service. we've doubled our 4g lte bandwidth thanks! in cities coast to coast. hey, don't worry, i got this... so save the day with verizon xlte. on the largest, most reliable network. get the new lg g3 with a quad hd display and 13 megapixel camera for $99.99
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welcome back. a scary scene aboard a jet in canada. police say a 25-year-old passenger made a direct threat against the aircraft 45 minutes after it departed from toronto, headed for panama. the jet was immediately turned back, and the s.w.a.t. team stormed the plane after it landed. the passenger is in custody now. and i have been asking you to tweet us if you feel unsafe about flying. and tonight our experts are answering your questions. i'm joined now by david soucie, cnn safety analyst and the author of "why planes crash." carlene pettitte, an international pilot, and lieutenant general rick francona, a cnn analyst. happy friday. how are you doing? you guys ready? david, you first. the escalation of violence in the ukraine, some viewers are really concerned about another show down, if russian rebels shoot down another airplane. what are the chances of america responding aggressively, right? it's hard to imagine, but could we have imagined -- we couldn't have imagined this a week ago. >> you know, i'm really not the military expert.
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but i would certainly hope that wouldn't happen. but i just don't see that happening. from my perspective. i don't think that it was the intended purpose to shoot down a u.s. carrier at that area. i really don't believe that was the intent. what we have done is restricted that airspace through there. we're restricting airspace in other areas. and as long as we're diligent about doing that, we just need to improve the way that we commute about where these weapons are and if they have gotten into the wrong hands to the air carriers. >> what would be your response, lieutenant colonel franconia? >> like david said, i don't think we're going to see another aircraft over that area. but they are shooting down airplanes. they shot down two yesterday. so there is still an active air defense threat in that area. what would be the correct response? it's hard to say. with the russians pouring more equipment in there daily, shelling going on across the boarder from both sides, i think the situation is ripe probably for some sort of nato activity, which i think would really,
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really up the ante in what is going on in the ukraine. >> carlene, a great question from one of viewers, saying are we moving in the direction where our passenger jets will need defense mechanisms? is that feasible? >> it's feasible, but i don't think we should go there. you know, the missile that took down this aircraft, the defense weapons, we couldn't have stopped it. so we'll spend a lot of money, putting technology on airplanes where it's quite let expensive and just as efficient just not to fly over that airspace. so now airlines are flying around the hot airspaces and there shouldn't be a problem. >> lieutenant concern rick francon narcotics i'll just call you rick from now on. >> please. >> could a missile attack on civilian airplanes happen here in our this country? >> it could, but that would be a mistake. we've had military accidents before and during exercises where particularly in air-to-air missiles where an a missile goes errant and actually strikes the wrong target, sometimes a
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civilian airliner. so there is precedent for that. you know, of course, everybody tries to minimize it and hopefully it doesn't happen. but that pocket does exist. >> i will call you rick from now on. i just like to be respectful of the people who served us. thank you for your service and i'll call you rick from now on. david, does our next viewer dan to v a reason to be concerned? my company has planned for know go to india next week over afghanistan and pakistan. i'm genuinely worried. >> well we had a segment this morning, don. and it was called fly safe. and s.a.f.e. is on the cnn digital website. you can go there and look at it. they asked me what do i do when i fly internationally. i told them i search the internet to see what is going on in that region, the twitter feeds, the social networks, what might be going on. that's the s. the a is to do an assessment and assess the air carrier. and there are links on that site that will tell you how do to do that.
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assess the carrier and the country you're flying into. and the flight itself, you can track where the flight is going to go to see what countries it is going to be flying over. it sounds like he already understands that. the last one is evaluate. even where it might affect your job rating or job satisfaction, whatever, your boss won't like you, it comes down to safety. if you don't feel safe with that flight after you have done those top three things, don't take the flight. >> they'll probably say easy for you to say, david soucie. >> i've lost jobs before for that. >> karlene, a tweet from kristen peterson says do planes know when they're about to get hit. >> no, we don't know. military airplanes do, but not commercial airlines. there is no way to tell. mh17, it was a surprise to them, unless it's coming directly at the aircraft forward. but highly unlikely. >> a good question from michael brooks, david. he says have rates on flight insurance changed? that will tell you if you should
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be afraid to fly, not media hyperbole. >> actually, insurance rates have not changed yet because they have to show what they call an aggregate risk. these airlines insurance by the air carrier themselves won't be increased because most of the things we saw so far were not the fault -- it's called a nonincident fault, meaning that they didn't cause the incident to occur. so what is not happening is the insurance companies aren't going after specific carriers yet. unless they do something that is causal. now the aggregate is based on a seven-year aggregate. so that seven years is rotatable. it's looking at the last seven years and those rates to my knowledge haven't increased yet. >> rick, another question is why do planes fly over countries that are in a state of political or civil unrest? are there not alternate routes? why so many routes and so many planes? it would be difficult to avoid all the world's hot spots, wouldn't it? >> well, it is, if you want to get there the fastest way. we talked about this right in
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the aftermath of the shoot-down of the malaysian jet. and it was amazing how many aircraft are actually transiting the ukraine. we look to some over spots, and we picked iraq. and the north/ -- the south route goes right over baghdad, and the north route takes you right up over samarra and tikrit, where they are fighting right now. so these airways traverse these hot spots. you could avoid them. it adds some flight time. but i think in the future, you're going see more consideration paid to that. >> david soucie, karlene petitt, lieutenant colonel rick francona, thanks to all of you for joining us. have a great evening and a great weekend. when we come right back, we're going to have questions about a botched execution this week in arizona. we'll get that in next. [ male announcer ] the mercedes-benz summer event is here. now get the unmistakable thrill... and the incredible rush... of the mercedes-benz you've always wanted. ♪ [ tires screech ] but you better get here fast...
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welcome back. the 8th amendment to the constitution states individuals convicted of a crime have the
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right to be free of cruel and unusual punishment. controversial execution in arizona is raising a lot of questions about that. ola sandoval has more. >> reporter: sentenced to die, but not like this. arizona inmate joseph wood gasping and struggling to breathe for nearly two hours. it was supposed to be quick and painless. >> at a certain point you wondered if he was ever going to die. >> reporter: wood's attorney say it was botched. the state maintains it was done lawfully. it's not the first time an execution didn't go as planned. april, oklahoma inmate clayton lockett writhing and convulsing for 43 minutes until the deadly dose took effect. january, ohio inmate dennis mcgwire joking for ten minutes before dying. >> people have been trying for a long time to make execution humane. >> reporter: ethics professor arthur caplan, an opponent of the death penalty questions the reliability of the drug cocktails used for lethal injections as a preferred method
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of execution in 32 states where capital punishment is legal. >> lethal injection came about because we knew with the right mix or cocktail of drugs, people would die relatively peacefully. >> reporter: problem is states are struggling with the shortage of some of the drugs used for executions. >> medical doctors are experts in pain control or anesthesiology won't participate. and the drugs they need to brew the cocktail companies won't sell for execution. >> reporter: caplan worries that is forcing states to try their own risky and untested drug combinations. the question now, is there a better way? the answer could be in the past. washington, d.c.'s crime and punishment museum offers a glimpse of the oldest forms of execution. >> each development, there has always been a -- an effort to make a more humane method of execution. >> reporter: some of these death devices were discontinued for moral reasons. then there is death by firing
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squad, still legal in utah and oklahoma. >> it's a clean method. it's quick. and you don't have to depend on a certain mix of drugs and getting it right. it works every time. >> reporter: state representative paul rey now proposing death by firing squad as the default option. >> if we can't get the drug cocktail, or if the drug cocktail has been ruled unconstitutionally fit, then we can automatically roll back to the firing squads. >> reporter: it turns out it's not that easy. >> watching somebody get electrocuted is not likely to be a mode of death that we're going to return to. hanging has many problems. it's harder to do it without causing someone not to die quickly. firing squad, forget it. >> reporter: the debate about how to execute justice is far from over. cnn, los angeles. >> all right, paulo, thank you very much. when we come right back, one of my next guests has an idea of how to change executions. bring back the firing squad.
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welcome back. the controversial execution in full view of witnesses has raised really some serious questions now. so joining me now to discuss is mark o'mara, cnn legal analyst and a criminal defense attorney, and judge alex kosinski, the chief judge u.s. 9th court of appeals. thank you both for appearing tonight. judge kosinski, you say it is time to abandon the lethal injection and bring back the firing squad. and you also say the guillotine is even a better option. why? >> it's quick, effective, it never fails. but i don't think it's
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consistent with our national ethos. it's too much associated with the french revolution and the reign of terror. but guns, firing squad, that's all american. >> here is the thing, just to play devil's advocate here, people say if you're going to kill someone, what does it matter if you shoot them, if you chop their heads off, if you hang them, if you give them a lethal drug. what's the difference, judge, you're still killing them? >> well, the question is whether the method is quick and effective. you want something that will work, that will work every time. and drugs are just not the thing. drugs are made to heal the body. they're made to make people feel well. they're calibrated for that purpose. they're not calibrated to kill people. and that's why you will have mishaps. people have different reactions to drugs. and it could be an overdose, an underdose. and it could have difficulties. >> and drug companies are really not happy with having their drugs associated with execution. so there is a shortage of them now as well.
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mark, let's move on -- go ahead, judge. >> you can understand why. the people are in the healing arts. >> right. >> doctors, people who make drugs. they are in the business of healing people and i could see where they would not want to be associated with the killing of people. >> mark, you're against the death penalty, altogether, in part because it is an ineffective deterrent to criminals, you believe. wouldn't potential criminals knowing they would end up being beheaded, would that solve the problem? >> most of the studies that have been done suggest there really isn't a deterrent effect to the death penalty. certainly not the way it has to be imposed in the states, which is of 10, 15, 20 years of appeal, we're going to at least try to do it right if we're going to do it at all. the really only purpose i see served by the death penalty is the retribution. there are still victims' families who on occasion feel the need that a death should deserve a death. but deterrent effect has really
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never shown true punishment i think while death penalty is certainly a punishment, life in prison, which i'm fine with a true life sentence as in florida, you do die in prison, i'm okay with that. i just don't know why we would need to become a society that voluntarily kills. it's the way that we treat our worst citizens that we're judged by. and i sort of hope that judge kozinski suggests that if we're going to kill, then at least we have to take on the reality that we're killing somebody and not feigning that we're doing it in a humane way. it's sort of absurd that we're going to kill humanely. if you really want to be humane, just don't kill. >> judge, you want to respond to that? >> well, i have my own views on whether we should have a death penalty or not. i think in extreme cases, the death penalty is entirely appropriate. but that's not the issue i discussed in my dissent that we're referring to. >> okay. >> in the wood case, i start with the assumption that there
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will be a death penalty and there an execution. and the question is what means to you use? what is the means that will be the quickest, the most effective, that will be the least -- place the least burden on the families who are watching, the families of the victim, and indeed on the subject themselves. so it seems -- >> let's talk about this wood case a little bit more. i understand what you're saying, and talk about what mark just said, the families want a death for a death. and in this joseph wood case, whether or not he suffered when he was being executed, families aren't really that concerned about it. one person who showed no sympathy is jean brown, a family member of wood -- one of wood's victims. here is what jean brown said. >> so everybody here from what i heard it was excruciating. you don't know what excruciating is. what's excruciating is seeing your dad lying there in a pool of blood, seeing your sister lying there in a pool of blood.
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that's excruciating. this man deserved it. >> mark, how do you respond to that? why should we worry about how cruel and unusual it was when he was very cruel to those people he killed? >> i've had death penalty cases. i've represented and helped out victims of families who have -- who have been killed. the reason why we have a system of justice is that we don't allow mob mentality. we don't say you will decide how we're going to respond when you were the one who was aggrieved. they are entitled to their anger, their hatred, their frustration and their sorrow. but we can't look and say because a death penalty victim's family says it's okay that we kill them slowly that it's going to happen that way. we have to be above that. >> all right. i have a short time left here and i want to get this and i want you to respond to this, judge. senator john mccain had this to say about joseph wood's execution. he told politico this. he said i believe in the death penalty for certain crimes. but that is not an acceptable way of carrying it out.
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and people who were responsible should be held responsible. the lethal injection needs to be an indeed lethal injection and not the not be the bollocks-upped version that occurred. to the judge? >> well, i can't speak of the political process. i would hope this is taken seriously. i don't think the current situation where there is so much uncertainty and so much delay and the executions are carried out so a haphazardly is good for anybody. i start with the families of the victims, sitting there watching. they're not sure what is going to happen. the idea of having an execution that is swift and painless and absolutely sure every time is that it puts an toned the situation, the suffering of the victims, the healing process can begin.
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>> okay. >> i do agree with mark that torture is not appropriate even if families want it. but you do want to give them relief. >> i have to go. thank you very much. thank you. i appreciate both. you have a good weekend. when we come right back, if porcelain dolls resembling your children started showing up on your doorstep, you might be a little creeped out, or a lot creeped out. but the story has kind of happy ending. we're going to give it to you next. signed up for your credit report site and i have a problem. i need to speak with your fraud resolution department. ugh, we don't have that. what should i tell him? just make that super annoying modem noise... ( ee...dong...shuuuhh...) hello? not all credit report sites are equal. classic. members get personalized help plus fraud resolution support. join now at with enrollment in experian credit tracker. (vo) you know that dream... where you're the hero? hey... you guys mind warming this fella up for me?
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time now for "cnn tonight" tomorrow. the stories that you'll be talking about tomorrow. no doubt this will be the talk of the town in philadelphia. tomorrow pope francis will visit the city next year. it will be his first visit to the u.s. as pope, and everyone is talking about these dolls left on the doorstep of some
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homes in california. the dolls resemble little girls who lived in the homes. the parents were upset. it turns out all is well. they were left as a gift or gifts by a woman who attends a church with those families. that's it for us tonight. i'm don lemon. thanks for watching. have a great weekend. "ac 360" starts right now. good evening. thanks for joining us. there is a lot happening tonight there is breaking news from the war between israel and hamas. a pause in the fighting, but only a pause. also, our first access to the wreckage of that airliner that went down in north africa and the role weather may have played in that crash. we begin, though, with video that raises all kinds of questions about post-9/11 airline security and raise as chill for anyone planning their next trip, because it's terrifying. as you watch this, understand it is not a drill. >> heads down, hands up! heads down, hands up! heads down, hands up! >> heads down, hands