tv Reliable Sources CNN November 10, 2013 8:00am-9:01am PST
later, a sweater. one company plans to bring slow tv to the united states. perhaps it will be a hit. ♪ >> compared with 21 hours of senator ted cruz reading "green eggs and ham" discussions about wool seem absolutely spe spellbinding. the correct answer to our gps challenge question was d, 20%. to combat double digit inflation, the chairman of the federal reserve paul volcker briefly raised interest rates to 20% in the early 1980s. this contributed to the country's plunge into recession but of course its subsequent recovery. the historical average in the u.s. has been around 6%. thanks for being part of my program this week. i'll see you next week. stay tuned for "reliable sources." for a week amid growing
doubts, cbs' "60 minutes" stood behind the interview of a security official that told of a harrowing experience during the attack in benghazi but on friday, laura logan admitted her story had fallen apart. >> well, you know, the most important thing to every person at "60 minutes" is the truth and today the truth is that we made a mistake. >> we'll look at what went wrong. the effort to expose the mistake, the implications for cbs news and the debate over what really happened in benghazi that night. and as details emerge about the relationship between miami dolphins player richie incognito and jonathan martin, we'll examine how the media has tackled the subject of bullying in the locker room and netflix's washington, d.c. set drama, "house of cards" just wrapped up filming season two. >> do you know how many people watch tmz? >> i couldn't care. >> that's why print journalism
is dying. >> you're stuck in the 20th century, lucas. >> i'll talk exclusively with the creator and executive producer about how reporters like me are portrayed. i'm eric deggans and this is "reliable sources." two weeks ago cbs' "60 minutes" released a controversial report detailing new aspects of the embassy attack in benghazi. in the center of the story was a security officer they called morgan jones. >> one guy saw me. he just shouted. couldn't believe he had seen me because it was so dark. he started walking toward me. >> as he was coming closer -- >> as i got closer, i hit him with the butt of the rifle in the face. >> but within days "the washington post" published a story questioning jones' credibility and revealing his true identity.
correspondent laura logan with forward with an apology. >> well, you know, the most important thing to every person at "60 minutes" is the truth and today the truth is that we made a mistake. that's very disappointing for any journalist. it's very disappointing for me. nobody likes to admit that they made a mistake. if you do, you have to stand up and take responsibility and say that you are wrong. in this case we were wrong. he said he told the fbi the same story that he had told us. but what we now know is that he told the fbi a different story to what he told us and that was the moment for us when we realized that we no longer had confidence in our source and that we were wrong to put him on air and we apologized to our viewers. >> now the publisher of the new book suspended publication and
sales. but with more than a year to investigate the claims, how did cbs fall victim to a suspect source? joining us, bill carter from "the new york times" who first confirmed discrepancies in the stories to fbi and cbs and in tampa, kelly mcbride and here in d.c., david brock founder of media matters for america. bill, i'm going start with you. the key problem here seems to be that cbs trusted davies when he said his account to the fbi matched an account in his book and that also in their reporting but you guys at "the new york times" were able to discover that that wasn't necessarily true so what happened here? where did cbs go wrong? >> looks like they didn't actually vet the guy thoroughly clearly because they didn't have this information from the fbi and he was telling them that would corroborate the story he told them but the fbi when it was willing to reveal this
undermine the story. they should have been able to find out through their own sources it seems to me in advance this was not going to be the case. they went ahead with this because he was the key to the story. they didn't have a lot else that was new and he was telling something exciting and dramatic like hitting someone in the head with a rifle. >> you called for "60 minutes" to retract this story more than a week before they did. what did you see in reporting that made you question what they were doing and what do you think happened here? >> first thing we saw was the day after the "60 minutes" report ran, on fox news it was disclosed they had used davies as a source up to the point where he demanded money. so that was one flag. obviously davies has a book out from a right wing publisher. that was the second flag and when the story ran, we asked for a retraction. that took quite a while. the excuse that cbs is giving
now is that they were duped. dupes of what? they were eager and willing dupes of a right wing hoax. they suspended the traditional standards of cbs news and they adopted the shoddy practices of fox news and when you get and go down the fox path, that's where you end up. the bigger piece for me is we have written a book called benghazi hoax for media matters and everybody that followed this story for the past 13 months knows that the entire scandal is a hoax. the only reason the story exists is partisan politics, republicans trying to sabotage health care, and prevent hillary clinton from running for president. >> now, we would expect that from a group like media matters you would see it that way. let me turn to kelly mcbride in tampa. you are an ethics instructor. before cbs retracted this story, lara logan made a point saying they spent a year investigating this. should there be an independent investigation to figure out what happened with reporting in this story and what do you make of
david's allegations about why this story may have happened in the first place? >> so whether it's an independent investigator or whether cbs does its own investigation, the really important thing is that they transparently reveal to the public why they made these mistakes. the day after their report came out, "the washington post" story pointed out that davies original account he gave to his employer was very different. cbs at that point was defending the story. it makes you think they knew that there was a discrepancy with their source. they knew that there were some red flags. normally when you have something like that as a journalist, you try and resolve it by at least talking to other people at the scene who could confirm that davies was actually there. because that's what's being questioned is was he really at the embassy when it was being
attacked? and because they didn't reveal whether they did that, it is -- the public has no idea right now what went wrong with cbs. was it a problem with their reporting or was it a problem that proceeds their reporting where they just accepted this source because he already had a book out, because the book was published by a company that is owned by cbs, there's so many questions that what's really important is revealing the answers to those very specific questions to the public and not necessarily whether it's an independent investigator or an internal investigator. >> i will point out that "the washington post" report you talked about came out a few days after the "60 minutes" report. so, bill, i'm going to play devil's advocate here and say is it possible that intelligence and military sources held back news of this incident report and the fbi report from "60 minutes"
in order to let them report something that was false and then kind of ambushed them with this news to you and perhaps to some other sources? could this have been some kind of weird sucker punch? >> i think you can guess almost anything in the story because it's clear there are so many agendas at work here. clearly the state department's a agenda was to undermine this report right away. they leaked that incident report. the incident report cbs knew something about because they felt like he told them he lied to his boss. the fbi report was to now be contradiction to that. i think you have to take into account that this is a very hot political issue from both sides. you have so many vested interests. mr. brock had a book. this guy had a book. there are many interests in this story. in a nonpartisan way to step back and say why did they make a mistake, i think they believed a guy they shouldn't have believed. that's fundamental part of this
and got them into this situation. >> david, isn't it possible that the core notion at the heart of this controversy about benghazi that the government should have known that a terrorist attack was being planned for quite some time before it actually happened. isn't it possible that could be true even though this source for "60 minutes" turned out to be compromised? >> first, i just want equate my book with this false book. no, here's the thing. i don't know what lara logan knew. she spent a year working on this story. if she paid attention we would know on the night of the attacks, mitt romney politicized this tragedy for his own agenda and trashed the president and trashed secretary clinton and said they were sympathizing with the attackers so "60 minutes" and its story is another version of the same hoax and scandal that they unearthed as "60 minutes" has nothing to do with benghazi.
their willingness to be duped by the right. >> is part of the problem here how cbs initially reacted to this story so quick to defend davies and so unwilling to allow that there might have been a problem? >> yes. that's part of the problem. the bigger problem though is them not being open about their reporting process. why were they so quick to defend him given the fact that there was a discrepancy about his actual presence there? they made you think they had done their due del diligence so to say we didn't do our due diligence on this makes you really question what was going on in the year they said they reported this story. >> yeah. and so do you think what they have to do tonight -- we don't know what they're going to say on 60 minutes. to reveal more about how they made this mistake, is that with a they need to do?
>> how did davies come to them as a source? was it through the book publisher or had he come to them before then and when he came to them, what fitype of questions d they ask him and other people at the scene to verify his story? >> i'm sorry. i'm sorry. i'm going to have to break in. thank you, guys, so much for coming on the show. there's so much to talk about here and hopefully we'll get a chance to deal with it more in the future. when we come back, nbc airs an exclusive report on a dramatic sky diving accident but the network is facing questions on whether it paid for the story. we'll ask the nbc crosseded a journalistic red line next. about the power of baking stuff with nestle toll house morsels. you can heal a broken heart with a bundt cake. make a monday mornin' feel like a friday afternoon with some nestle toll house morsels.
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according to "the washington post," nbc didn't just get footage for their money, they also got exclusive interviews with the sky divers. traditional news outlets have rules about paying sources for interviews. nbc denies any financial agreement for the interviews but admits it paid for a footage. according to a company spokesperson, the lightning of the footage is standard industry practice. if the practice were standard, why are critics calling foul. taking a deeper look at kanch for coverage and how it affects reporting, we turn to paul farhi and in new york city, host of the news program "under the radar" on wgbh. paul, i'll go to you first. you broke this story. nbc is saying everybody wanted to license this video. we're just paying the people who made it for access to the video. what's wrong with that?
>> it is effectively paying for news. what nbc did was paid for the footage in a bidding war with several networks including abc. but as part of that agreement, they also locked up the interviews with the pilot and the skydivers, all 11 of them, to appear on camera. they were locked out of any other interview for a two-week period according to one of the skydivers involved. so clearly it's a package deal. >> so i can remember instances where abc was criticized for paying $200,000 to casey anthony for family photos. eventually abc agreed to disclose such payments when they made them and they got so many inquiries about hot interviews they said we're not going to pay people at the center of big stories anymore. why do we have this restriction and why do so many networks do whatever they can to skirt it?
>> well, we have this restriction because it allows you to get the real story. there's always the possibility and probably the probability that someone will enhance the story if they're being paid. there's something about paying someone to tell the truth for journalist sake any way that really calls into question the integrity of the story. that's why we have practice of not doing it. but the practice of paying for it now becomes murky as people want footage. so i really do see why networks are trying to get the pictures and footage which is really valuable comi commodity all ove web. they have many platforms on which to use it but interviews are still called into question in this scenario. it can't be done. so distresses me because you have really good journalists who can get these interviews without having to pay for them. i'm reminded of my colleague in
boston, ed harding, who got an exclusive interview with the guy where dzhokhar tsarnaev was found hiding in his boat, he didn't have to pay for it. he wanted to tell his story to a journalist that he respected. >> questions arise when you see the price tags. you don't pay $100,000 for a picture or footage. nbc has an independent company called peacock productions doing a story of kidnap victim hahn anderson. is this a way to skirt rules that we're talking about? >> this is the first episode of nbc news paying for its news. they arranged a deal with hannah anderson and her father to create a documentary through this subsidiary, peacock productions. numbers go up and up and up.
over 100,000. may be 200,000. they haven't disclosed the actual figure. the dodge is we are paying to license family photos and footage. however, the cooperation of the source is always part of the deal and that's what's going on in this case. >> so we've seen other instances where news outlets paid for materials. the toronto sun paid $5,000 for video of mayor rob ford going crazy and threatening someone's life and gawker had a story where they said someone had video of him smoking crack wanted six figures. is this the price in modern media? >> it doesn't have to be but if it's going to be, we the viewers should know it's paid for. there ought to be just like we see logos of the networks or media outlet all over the place on any exclusive footage, there ought to be something that says we paid for this. this is something that we purchased.
so then i as a viewer can determine whether or not what you presented to me was influenced by that payment. i should know. it should be on the table that this was paid for. as long as it's not on the table and we don't know it, it calls into question what really went on here and what do we know is truth. >> thanks a lot. i'll ask you guys to stick around for the next segment where we talk about a new subject. next, the magazine "guns and ammo" fires a longtime editor and writer after publishing an article calling for mandatory training for gun owners. did the second amendment trump the snirs comes back, i'm not ha. use ups. they make returns easy. unhappy customer becomes happy customer. then, repeat customer. easy returns, i'm happy. repeat customers, i'm happy. sales go up, i'm happy. i ordered another pair.
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the writer and editor were pushed out over a column which suggested there could be some limits on the second amendment namely that gun owners should be required to have some firearms training before getting a concealed carry permit. you have to pass a test to drive a car in this country. do you think that the readers of "guns and ammo" maybe crossed the line on this one? >> remember, there are two issues here. there's a policy debate among readers of "guns and ammo" and this guy that wrote a column suggesting the training and media debate about whether he should be fired for expressing his opinion. this is an advocacy publication. you have to think they can say, look, you didn't follow the line with what we believe to be advocating for our position so you got to go. i think it's shocking because he obviously had done a great job as far as they were concerned in promoting their attitude about gun control or not having gun
control and so here you are. he's not doing journalism. an advocacy publication. >> i know we have said this going into the segment but are they really choosing the second amendment over the first and not allowing the columnist to sort of get this debate started without paying some kind of price for losing his job? >> you are talking about an extreme element of a publication that caters to people who believe a certain set of values about guns. on the other hand, why didn't the publication stand up to these people saying we are here to foster debate. we are not here to only serve your limited beliefs on this topic. let's have a discussion and let's not be a mob and drive the guy and editor out of the publication all together. >> i got to say, i'm surprised that the editor of the magazine is surprised by the backlash. he's got to know his readers and what they believe and that
introducing a debate like this would be controversial, wouldn't you think? >> yeah but he's got the background. this guy had been nothing but straight down the line promoting what most people in the publication believe so he thought he had a space, some grace, to suggest a debate within the confines of that publication. clearly the readers did not believe so. >> now, paul, don't you think though that it's the job of a magazine to kind of challenge the readers a little bit and push things a little bit? >> i was wondering whether "guns and ammo" is the best place to have a debate about gun control or the worst place. as it turns out it's the worst place. and they learned a harsh lesson on that. >> all right. well thanks a lot for joining us. ahead on "reliable sources," the ugly side of sports. a miami dolphins player says a teammate bullied him putting the spotlight on rookie hazing. did sports reporters miss a story under their noses for
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>> it's been an ugly week for the miami dolphins after allegations that richie incognito bullied jonathan martin. the dolphins have suspended incognito and the nfl has launched an investigation. the practice of hazing rookie players common in the nfl has been central to the controversy. incognito is accused of taking hazing of martin too far including leaving him a threatening and racist voice mail. other dolphins players supported incognito and quarterback ryan tannehill told the media he was unaware of issues between the two players. >> if you asked jon martin a week before who his best friend on the team was, he would have said richie incognito. first guy to stand up for jonathan when anything went down on the field, richie was first guy there. >> how do reporters sift through the conflicting reports. joining us now from miami is
dave hyde and here in d.c., christine brennan sports columnist for "usa today." dave, you talked to several past dolphin player that know richie incognito. he has the most ironic name in news right now. they said that the current stories don't seem to make sense. they don't understand what's going on. so are they covering for a friend? have journalists exaggerated this? what's your sense of what's going on here? >> my sense is this is a culture that the nfl has created and there was nothing out of the ordinary that went on with jonathan martin that goes on in the nfl culture. the bigger question and i think it will end up in a courtroom is this even legal and i think ultimately it will head to a courtroom and we'll see if there's a settlement or it actually goes to court. >> christine, incognito when this broke sent a tweet to an espn reporter saying if you or
any agents you sound off for have a problem with me, you know where to find me which vaguely sounded like a threat, right? how tough is it to report on this stuff when you know athletes won't respond to it all that well? >> we have to as journalist say what we know and when we don't know nothing. there is so much we just do not know on this story. it's important and responsible journalism to tell people that. the miami and south florida media have done a good job of painting the picture of the locker room this week once the initial stories came out. but i have to say that while bullying is terrible and it's absolutely unacceptable and i know we all agree on that. the key question here is this bullying? martin and incognito, this friendship that we're hearing about, which of course the reporting was done, what was the extent of that? and i'm hoping this is a watershed moment for the nfl in looking at this issue as a workplace issue, but i also know from covering the nfl for many years that this is a violent
game and these are football players. i'm not condoning it for one second. we have to look at this game, these young men, playing this violent game that most of us would never survive for a second, and so that locker room culture is different from anything else we've seen. >> dave, the sun sentinel had a great story talking about how dolphins coaches have asked incognito to draw this young player out of his shell. are they being disingenuous now when they try to say they didn't know the extent of what was going on under their watch? >> well, we're going to have to wait until they come out and answer some questions, real questions, either from the nfl investigator or again in a courtroom over what they knew. initially it was reported jonathan martin was going from emotional treatment after this. did they know he had emotional problems before this? did they handle him with that in mind or did they just let him go? as christine said, there's a lot of issues. and to me that goes right to the
initial reporting of this, the drape has been pulled back on the nfl culture but also it should be pulled back on the reporting. some of those initial reports were not even in context. richie incognito was basically said to extort $15,000 from jonathan martin for a trip to las vegas that martin didn't take. we talked to several of the guys who went on the trip and it was an annual linemen trip. flights were paid for, hotel rooms, shows, et cetera and at the last minute jonathan martin backed out and so as with anybody going on any trip like this, does the person who backs out, should they pay for their freight and i think most of us would say probably should. so again the reporting on this is coming -- again, initially it came from jonathan martin's side and it was completely one-sided. i think there's still some balance but there's so many
questions out here that remain to be answered. >> now, christine. >> in the past when we have seen reporting on hazing that rookies go through, it is playful. it's depicted on hbo's series "hard knocks." is it possible that journalists didn't take this serious enough and ask tough questions about how extensive this hazing really is? >> it is certainly possible. i guess if we can take someone into the locker room, i was covering the people here in washington and for three years i have been in hundreds of nfl locker rooms. it's a very different place. dave i'm sure has the exact same stories. may be tougher on a woman but it's tough on any journalist. we're yelled at. we're teased. we're screamed at. so in some ways i think one of the things this is showing us is the fact that there's a lot as i said we don't know. there's only so much we can do in the locker room. we're in that locker room for an hour or so journalists are every day for any particular nfl team.
in some ways this reminds me of the tiger woods story when everyone said four years ago when he had the run-in with the fire hydrant, didn't everyone know this? no. i'm in the press room at the u.s. open at the masters, at the british open, i'm not hanging out with tiger woods. dave and other reporters aren't hanging out with incognito. >> i appreciate the story. i have to break in. thank you for joining you. america is growing more diverse but is coverage by mainstream news outlets keeping pace and if not who is filling in the gaps? a story about news and diversity when we come back. my customers can shop around-- see who does good work and compare costs. it doesn't usually work that way with health care. but with unitedhealthcare,
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online column. richard, those two media outlets i mentioned have focused on telling news from a different cultural perspective. what does that look like and how is it different than what we see in the mainstream news outlets? >> first thing we see is they are people of color who are the subjects of the news stories and content is of particular interest to people of color. for example, one of the biggest stories in the last couple weeks has been the affordable care act. you would not know from most of the mainstream coverage that most african americans and latinos are in favor of the affordable care act. they're not bellyaching but it is portrayed as universal by the general population. you wouldn't find that among latino and african-american orientated shows. >> you're headed to a new job at al jazeera america after hours at the news hour.
how can they miss the boat on news coverage of people of color? >> you're always in a difficult straddle because there's an idea that there's a general broad way to tell every story and if you're going to look at something like the affordable care act which is also of a different level of interest to communities of color, just because of the profile of who is uninsured in america and the most uninsured and underinsured of all americans are latinos so maybe there's a different cut at the story that gets at the different interests at stake and different views of how this is all going to affect them. have i felt marginalized? sometimes. only because -- not because of an active bias or marginalization as much as a looking at the stories and says there's one way to tell them and
that's to your average american who doesn't look like me or richard or you for that matter. and it's that privilege of being the decider who says this is how we tell this story that has very little black and brown input into it. so it's a tough one. it's a tough one. we're trying to get into a business that is right now deciding what its business model will be and it's been shrinking for the last ten years. tough time. >> i saw an interview you did with the website where you sort of talked about feeling like you didn't have access to that kind of decision making ability at the news hour anymore. could you talk a little bit about how you felt there? some of the executives there said they plan to make you chief national correspondent and you might have more latitude but talk about that and talk about how you might have that freedom at al jazeera america with the new show you have coming out. >> i go on the air tomorrow.
i hope viewers tune in tomorrow 5:00 eastern live across all time zones. show is called "inside story." and just by moving from being a correspondent to being a host is a tremendous step up in the influence into the editorial product. when we have a meeting, i'm one of the most heard voices in that meeting because guess what? people want to keep the anchorman happy. >> i discovered that. >> you are chosen because the people who hired you think that the way you look at the news is worth paying for and worth hiring. it already means a big step up for me. i'm very excited. can't wait to get started. >> now, richard, we don't have a lot of time. one question that people always bring up is where is the line between fairly depicting people of color and being an unfair advocate in the news for people of color and their concerns. how do you draw the line between actually being fair or having your finger on the scale?
>> well, i think i'll answer that question by talking about a survey that was just done among black women when they asked how they think they are portrayed by the media. categories they came up with gold diggers, baby mamas, uneducated, sisters, ratchet women, angry black women, et cetera, et cetera. you get the idea. i think that there's no -- the shows that seem to resonate among mainstream audiences that concern african-american women particularly are not described as fair in their representation of how african-american women actually are. >> all right. richard and ray, thanks a lot for joining us. up next, the second season of netflix's "house of cards" just wrapped up filming. after the break i speak to the creator and executive producer of the show about what to expect and how the popular online series portrays people in my
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. on friday the second season of netflix' house of cards, focused on kevin spacey's -- young journalist who sleeps with spacey's character. >> how about slug line? >> what's slug line? >> if i said politico wanted to hire me, what would you say? >> i would say that that peaks my interest. six months from now, politico will be what slug line was a year and a half ago. >> i asked about the state of the media and the show's second season. >> welcome to reliable sources. >> thanks for having me here. >> one of the things i love about house of cards is that we talk about the media and you depict how the media works. i'll be honest, in the -- you
had this young blogger coming up. and what i love too is by the end of the season she really teams up with an old school journalist. is there a message where about where you think the media is going? >> the senior political correspondent for the washington herald, our fictional paper. but jeanine has made the decision to slug line as well. so you have two journalists who left a prestigious newspaper to work somewhere that would be like a politico. so i think reporters will tend to gravitate where they have the most impact. and one of the questions our show poses is where is thattism pact? what form does it take and how does it change the face of news? >> i know for some of the
critics that reviewed the show, the story twist where you are the reporter sleeping -- i wondered, i know that was the story line in the original british version of the series as well. what did you think when you had to adapt it for television? >> she's not sleeping with him entirely to get sources. that's four episodes in when that happens. and what they have is a very professional transactional relationship before that. she said if you give me access i'll print ma you want. there's a form of ethics that is questionable. but our goal was not to tell the story of woodward and burn stein. ambitious people will do anything to get what they want. the idea of noble, ethical
journalism wasn't something we tried to advertise. we don't mean for zoe barns to be typical of the way all journalists work. it was the exception. we don't treat politicians with kid gloves. >> one of my pet theories about why other tv shows i feel having dealt with journalism so well is that often it's boring. all we're doing is making phone calls and looking through papers. was that a challenge too, to bring some drama to a process that might be boring on its face? >> really the focus is on the characterses, what is happening emotionally and dramatically for the characters. if the characters are compelling and what's happening to them is important to them and that is conveyed to the audience, then
it will be important and interesting to the audience. there are times when we exaggerate things for the sake of drama, but authenticity is very important. and yeah, you're always walking a fine line between if i were being absolutely 100% authentic here, it would be four months to break the story, and there would be a lot of sitting behind a desk and making phone calls. but if you capture the essence of the most dramatic portions of that endeavor, you're also telling the truth, but you're doing it in a way that's entertaining. >> media often just reflects what's bubbling around on the surface of society. as we stand here today, what do you think is bubbling around in the surface of society now? >> i think that media doesn't shape the conversation, i think they report the conversation and the best journalists can anticipate where the conversation is going. n
>> you guys did just wrap your second season. >> you're a guy that tends to keep your cards close to the vest, but can you tell us anything about what we can expect for the next season and how the media is going to be featured? >> absolutely not. i sort of have a blanket policy, we don't discuss anything that's coming ahead. one of the thing that happens when you release an entire season in one day, is that you're already contending with spoiler alerts from the first day of release, so we don't want to do anything to sort of get that process going before day one. >> i totally understand. we'll get out the torture devices and figure out what's happening later. executive producer, show runner, creator of netflix' house of cards. >> that's it for this edition of reliable sources. by the way, if you miss a program, you can now go on i-tunes on mondays and check out our podcast. just search for reliable sources
in the i-tunes store. join us again sunday morning for another critical look at the media. state of the union with candy crowley begins right now. iran nuclear talks falter, obama care struggles and white house nominees blocked. the president's dismal fall. today, no go in geneva. >> the window for diplomacy is not stay open indefinitely. >> despite an all in diplomatic -- republican senator lindsay graham joins us with his take on the talks with tehran and the latest twist in the tangle that is benghazi. then. >> welcome to new jersey. virginia, thank you. >> reading the results of 2013 through the prism of 2014 through the party chairs. democrat