tv The Stream 2019 Ep 200 Al Jazeera December 17, 2019 7:32am-8:00am +03
spread to university campuses thousands of colombians have turned out to protest against tax reforms demonstrators say the measures only benefit the rich businesses . china and russia are calling for an end to some u.n. sanctions on north korea they've proposed a draft security council resolution which would see some penalties lifted more strikes are expected in france on tuesday is thousands vent their anger about changes to the pension system the government wants people to work for 2 years longer is also proposing an end to special privileges for some employees. it's the stream nags stay with us. a dramatic year for donald trump ends with impeachment threatening his presidency no one not even the president is above what next for the man hoping to win a 2nd term in power in 2020 impeachment inquiry is a scam join us for the latest developments on al-jazeera.
in the stream today can exposing china's internment camps close the after journalists reveal classified documents on muslim in tent camps china pushes back with its own narrative we'll speak to a panel of journalists covering and we want your input so that's your questions and your comments to twitter or our live you tube chat ringback. this is free to do if the kind of director of human rights watch and you were in the street. china says we are ethnic minorities to happen contained in the so called we education camps have been released. not yet seen here on sunday. at presents all the trainees who participated in the training courses on learning
mandarin law skills and the radicalization have completed their studies they've achieved stable employment with the help of the governments improve their quality of life and now live a happy life for sure they are. china is now at it runs contrary to assessments from the un and human rights groups who say that move the 1000000 people have been held in mass detention camps designed to suppress muslim identity and build loyalty to the chinese communist party beijing insists that they have programs intended to combat what it sees as religious extremism the recent media offensive follows investigative reporting from the york times international consortium of investigative journalists and others that published reports last month they still need documents from the chinese government so today we'll hear from a panel of journalists who covered jang joining us on set is my deputy director of radio free asia as weaker service and bethany allen ibrahimi in china reporter with
x. yost she was the lead for the international consortium of investigative journalists china cables project which helped reveal the inner workings of mass internment camps in. and in tel aviv. international correspondent for buzz feed news she was formerly china bureau chief for buzz feed and was the 1st journalist to find and visit an internment camp or weaker muslims welcome everyone to this stream i want to start with our community because here in the stream we've covered the weekers and what's going on in this region of china for a while now and still there are some confusions i want to read to treats to you disperses from bala who says my question is why is the chinese government calling it training camps in the world or calling them concentration camps another person writes and this is betty and she says read education is a misleading term these are concentration camps where every moment is monitored and punishments are harsh and frequently administered so maybe i will give this one to
you because of course as we mentioned at the top of the show the chinese government is now saying people have been released from these camps you've actually been to one what can you tell us about what they are and what calling them accurately what that looks like. yeah it's an interesting question the whole term the trouble cation certainly comes from communist party talks and it's been used not only in china but and also in places like the soviet union and in 930 s. germany for instance. basically signifying that people are being taken to a facility where their patterns of thought or their are their kind of ideals or beliefs are going to be shifted fundamentally in subway i think what's notable about some of the document leaks that we've seen this past month is that it's become very clear that the party even to its own assessments of these camps is using the chinese term gz along which means concentration so if you think about the
what the term concentration means what it refers to can't specifically about bringing together people of a certain ethnicity and by force into these facilities and that's kind of exactly what we've seen here betty i'm looking at one of the google tweets quite recently looking at some of what you've done and i'm looking exactly how you've described this you could break in the time they have taken to neutralize this highly classified chinese government documents including the operations manual for china's concentration camps you have no doubt that these a concentration comes from your reporting. i think that's herman concentration camps you know part of why i use that is because it taps into the the people who would be reading that you know our readership it taps into an emotional feeling an emotional response an emotional understanding of what something is and the reality of these camps is that it is you know
a sweeping government policy aimed at eradicating an ethnic minority in this case not necessarily through mass murder but through changing their identity and that is what we associate with concentration camps at the mass policy aimed at allin eliminating or harming or controlling ethnic and religious minority and that's exactly what this is. just a mega mentioned as well in the highlands that china used for example they used the chinese name if you take the education part of the chinese terminology in this name it so is this is concentration camps so these a concentrated education comes because so if you take the education part of it it becomes the concentration camp in chinese. title itself as well but as a journalist we've been listening to. experts like. human rights activists everybody who are familiar with the. policy
because that concentration camps so far. so we didn't call it concentration camps or cells but it's we call it internment camps in radio free asia but other experts are saying because of those reasons but these are concentration moments i want to pose this to you this is someone on twitter sharman his eyes how was it that the chinese government is still denying that these are prisons despite the overwhelming evidence found through various investigations what do we know right now that's coming out of the chinese government and how has that changed over time. china china started this campaign it is thought beginning of 2017 china. when we had this news they denied it didn't have anything like that. in un in 2018 come up with this report that 1000000 over 1000000 people are being held in this camps and china immediately changed its narrative saying that yes we have some
people for training job training and so far china had been pushed to answer and respond to these policies but china is denying that it's consensual. detention of. muslims over there but if china did admit that it's. a concentration camp or a detention camp china had to answer and release those people that's what china is denying and china knows that it's making a mistake actually so the video that it's watching on screen this video is from 29000 from. education facility the chinese government calling it we did ask the chinese government to take part in this conversation or to send us a statement and they declined but we were able to use some comments from the china global t.v. network group a particular reporter called luzhin who is well known on the c.t.t.
and network and she characterizes what is happening in china with these education centers these centers however you decide to call them she catches them in a very different way of illicit the so-called waiter acts of 2019 disregards the efforts as counterterrorism and calls for measures to counter what it calls arbitrary detention of over 1000000 waders this is the same as saying it's wrong to ask someone in the us to do compulsory community service for the minor crimes they committed although the strange young women do were people not only learn a lesson but something useful is a nature more similar to britain's d. systems and disengagement program the country's tailor made this indoctrination program she is dealing with a minor offenders to effectively tackle the root causes of terrorism sounds so reasonable there mega but the comments that we've been getting from outside of
china have been horrific things are happening to people they are being surveilled also that they are just being ripped away from their families why is the narrative from china say very different from the narrative of people like you who are reporting this story. well i think 1st we should make clear that state media in china it is an official government mouthpiece so of course it makes sense that a c.t. had a reporter or other officials from the organization would be defending official government policy but you know to the point that she made about you know minor offenses deserving punished if the people who are the hundreds of thousands of people who have been sent to these camps have indeed committed minor infractions what are the infractions where was the charge where was the arrest where was the trial all of the stuff was happening in a black box and there is very little transparency that's been provided with by the government to kind of show the defense behind behind any of this stuff and if the
government is really so sure that what it's doing is correct and that i personally believe that it should stand up to scrutiny by the international community right and one thing that our leaks document show is that there's a system called i p which takes mass data collection analyzes it through various algorithms spits out names of people who are suspicious and so one of the documents that i looked at personally you know i do know people forward 24000 names of jiang and within one week police were more than 15000 of them and put them in as it calls concentrated education and training there was no mention of guilt there was no mention of a trial of charges not even of a true police investigation this was being done through basically some kind of unknown algorithm that is profoundly different cannot be even remotely compared to any system of justice that is being implemented in
a country with rule of law. you know so the argument that this is somehow for people who are criminals is a lie. actually for example we talked to this. local official once and he said that. one lady was sentenced to 8 years after she's been educated because she was advising his brother her brother in law not to eat during the. month of ramadan that's a crime she was sentenced for 8 years and also give my brothers as an example for example i got 3 brothers who had been taken away to the camps 2 of them 2017 may and 1 of them february 2018 and so far one of them were teacher in a very. kind of respected high school and he was nominated for the headmaster of
the high school and he was exemplary teacher actually he speaks 3 different languages he's a very well educated person he never committed any crime in his own life whole life he's the one son and another brother he graduated from. from beijing so we're very respected. highly kind of. high education college in beijing and he had his own company he didn't commit any crime also he translated many chinese books. one of the mali and spoke for example from the red so groom he translated that into weaver and he was taken away to the camps and what was his crime he didn't make it he didn't commit any crimes for example and my other brother he had also his own business he didn't make it he didn't come in he studied law in university he knows what crime means and he's taken away he saw those people i don't know the exact numbers but experts are saying that 1800000 people
this is a new number some leaders and activists are saying that 3000000 and 90 percent of those people could have been just like my brothers didn't make him commit any crimes. 3 people and one family member john thank you for sharing that story because i know it can't be easy especially being a reporter you have to worry about reprisals you have to worry about the safety of your family back there we're hearing that from people online as well who share with us the difficulties are facing so this is one person measurement teen who wrote trust on twitter he says chinese government's unwillingness to allow free media makes it impossible for reporters to do their job when landing and challenging they are monitored and stopped wherever they go on the ground are afraid of talking to a foreigner especially a reporter even with that said he still wanted to share the story of his family so here's what he told the stream. and 15. of those on the phone could i am one of the shows me called them again and
a little note to put them in for the i did not going to begin but in the. internals go to. the. front of the unlawful detention under this of my good. to much. my father in china is going to possibly. know i go to the shows. and members of my mother and my system but i was those so big of course we had the stream can't independently verify the accounts around his family members but you could hear the hurt in the passion in his voice there so i went to europe direct that to you to talk to us about the repercussions for journalists and of course for their sources in that region. yeah i mean this is been one of the most difficult things about reporting on this story is just the
penalties for reporting on it and also just the lack of access when you think about the camps and this kind of heavy handed surveillance technology was deployed against people in the region it really really helps to physically be on the ground to be able to see it and to talk about it you know for the rest of the world to be able to understand both in text and photos but in practice what happens is that when journalists land in. there are often ended by police right after they step off the plane or even when they check into a hotel at checkpoints all of these places and what ends up happening is that you either get to taint for so long that you can't go anywhere or you're followed which basically sends a message to anybody who might talk to you who might share their story with you that there are going to be really serious weapon questions for them if they choose to do that and in fact there are many stories of sources of journalists who are based in china as well as you know people who have collaborated with them even people like drivers for instance of translators who've been sent off to detention
just for doing that so it's a really really serious situation it's life or death for a lot of people there and it's contributed i think it's really impoverished you know all of us as newsreaders and part of the global community that cares about this issue for actually learning the real truth of the story because we've been forced to sort of feed off of these dribs and drabs that come out from people who have escaped the region or from other sources such as document leaks like bethany's recently reported on as well as satellite imagery and other things like that. if you don't mind i know johnnie's hate to be the story but part of what has turned you into the story so i'm just going to point people to the headline that the guardian this is this is a year ago so i know you haven't been in china for a little while china ejects us journalists known for putting when she did with passion that journalist is you besame as you trying to do your stories one of the biggest challenges for you. well i'm based outside of china anyway so in some ways
i have from the from the very beginning always had to face these kinds of restrictions because i'm not in china anyway however it has gotten more difficult to speak with people inside of china used to be much easier to reach out even when there are sources in the united states have had to reckon with you know the choice of if i speak to a journalist. you know perhaps my family will be detained or will will disappear so even here in the united states we go sources and other sources don't feel free and they don't feel safe and they have been subject to harassment i'm just thinking hey i just want everybody to have a look at this reporting here from radio free asia because we're much on what you did was you and your colleagues got together to tell your very personal stories about what's been happening to your family that must be a very difficult thing for you to share your own lives as part of journalism do you
feel you're still the journalism is leading you or is it your personal heartache that is pushing you to continue to tell a story or. we could say it's very your therm line that we walk because. we service where you feel we can service is only one we're language service for the week is around the world so we've got 11 something people and there are 12000000 people back inside china and one to 3000000 people in the camps and if you don't do the job if you don't report on them so yes many of your organizations like you guys and you know. wall street journal everybody's doing it but we have privilege i mean a special way of connecting them so we know the language we know the local officials so we have to do it be if you don't do it it's not been done enough because we are the 1st ones who did report on this and that's internment of leaders
at the beginning and then other organizations media organizations follow through so it's also personal as well as it's a calling for us it's i just want to show this because i want people to go often and then hear these personal stories again here radio free asia and you can see your calling so you can see how much john as well tell investors about the people in the family and the friends that they don't know where they are or they know where they are and they can't get them. i want to share this from twitter this is about who says exposing the camps without any real sanctions to china will do very little to actually close some of that's echoed on you tube so we got a comment from someone saying something very similar this is a biker who rapes and now that this is been exposed what will the u.n. do about it that really matters but if nothing is done then the worst is yet to happen so bethany what do you think the results of your reporting but the china
that the cables the the the it's all come out now we're seeing tweets about it we're doing shows about it what will happen next i have been hardened to some extent because you know when things started getting really really bad and have been bad for a long time but see 3 years ago no one cared no no governments are making statements about this in the past year and a half especially in the past year and especially since the leaks of documents we have seen more and more governments at least making statements so for example the secretary of state might pay you recently called what's happening in the stain of the century that's a that's an important statement but let's be clear that symbolic and the u.s. house recently passed that we're human rights act and you know that if passed into law would put sanctions on key chinese government individuals who are complicit in this that matters but again it's symbolic it will not actually force the chinese government to do anything what western nations who are concerned with human rights
have really failed to do is to counter the chinese government's years long campaign to weaken international support for human rights including mechanisms inside the united nations to date the u.n. secretary general has not condemned china's detention camps isn't that his job and that's because of the groundwork that china has worked for years to lay in case they needed it for a situation like that of course not just western nations allow show we did on the weekends was looking at air. the country's muslim cup majority countries who people were saying have not done enough on this issue so it's not just the west we know of course that it's most certainly not and again it's the same years long campaign that that china has waged and when it comes pacifically to muslim majority nations it's an economic campaign so many of those nations are now heavily dependent on china for you know for infrastructure investment for loans for trade iran for example heavily dependent on china so it's people like to point fingers at
them and say why aren't the muslim majority countries standing up well it's not it's not it's not a simple question it has very much to do is kind of massive economic might i guess i'm looking at this headline here from the guardian and this is how we celebrate ash china claims detained week as have been frayed snowing for your contacts so says your report tosh is this true. so for you know it's been couple of days that governor. sherzai career. claimed that most of the students are graduated and we don't know what does that mean but so far we go thousands of weeks we're living outside of china who who have relatives inside the camps inside the chinese centers but we didn't have any confirmation didn't even come up to say that my relatives are being released right so we don't know so far we can come from anything made you think this might be a reaction to the international community and join us around the world reporting
more on what the week is all going for. i mean it's hard to say i certainly think that it's very clearly pointed this out which is as soon as the u.n. made a statement in a very very public way about their concerns with the internment camps of the number of people who were being in turn that was the point at which the chinese government actually acknowledged that this was a thing that was happening even if they didn't acknowledge the reality of the situation so i do think that public pressure has played a role of these up until this point but as like many of the actions that have been taken so far by international governments certainly by the read by the e.u. even in the united states has been largely symbolic. but large a symbolic but the united states is only one country has been leading the world to that and say something to speak of my company oh so just like
mentioned yes your mission. called on china many times and my parents as well and recently one of the biggest star in muslim world. football star yes you know you know. so the stories are getting out there in the main message is ill he's just thinking about was a good situation. with the national team he says how does china expect the world to believe its claim of graduation is that we can't talk to our family members for a year so this one will post to the government they're not john beth and maggie thank you so much for joining us on the street today and you can i will see you next time kathleen.
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